
Matt Kovacs is the President and Lead Strategist at Blaze PR, a boutique PR agency that works with lifestyle brands. With over two decades of experience in PR and marketing, he has led campaigns for major brands like ESPN, Honest Tea, and Marriott Hotels. Matt specializes in helping brands leverage PR to attract investments, shape category dynamics, and build reputations that convert.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
- [2:25] How understanding a founder's goals drives PR campaign strategy
- [5:06] What makes high-performing PR campaigns?
- [10:40] The importance of product sampling and how to position products in front of the media
- [15:25] Matt Kovacs describes the elements of traction in a PR campaign’s first 90 days
- [18:56] How Blaze PR positions CPG founders as thought leaders
- [23:01] Quantifying ROI in PR campaigns and preparing founders for media positioning
- [36:01] A case study of helping Bushwick Kitchen prepare for an acquisition
- [42:00] How Blaze PR used PR to attract investments for Pickle Juice
- [52:43] The value of creating founder stories around products
- [54:59] Blaze PR’s long-term strategy for growing Kavita until acquisition
- [1:03:53] PR tactics to support DTC brands entering retail
- [1:08:33] Matt’s early experience with remote work
In this episode…
For consumer brands aiming to scale, public relations often feels like an uncertain investment. While performance marketing offers measurable ROI, PR can seem intangible, focusing more on image than impact. How can founders ensure their PR efforts support business outcomes like fundraising, acquisition, or retail expansion?
Public relations strategist Matt Kovacs has developed a practical framework for aligning PR with business goals. He emphasizes the importance of clarifying a brand’s objectives before launching any campaign, whether building thought leadership, category awareness, or retail traction. Matt recommends building cross-functional buy-in, investing in influencer product sampling, and leveraging media audits and strategic messaging to improve placement outcomes. To quantify results, he suggests using tools like an “impact index” to rate coverage based on business-relevant criteria.
In today’s episode of the Up Arrow Podcast, William Harris sits down with Matt Kovacs, President and Lead Strategist at Blaze PR, to discuss how to execute PR that drives measurable business growth. He talks about aligning PR with acquisition or retail goals and best practices for media training, leveraging influencer partnerships, and supporting founder-led storytelling.
Resources mentioned in this episode
- William Harris on LinkedIn
- Elumynt
- Matt Kovacs on LinkedIn
- Blaze PR
- Dr. Jeremy Weisz on LinkedIn
- Rise25
- “DNVB to Retail: Omnichannel CPG Secrets From 3-Time 9-Figure Founder Clayton Christopher” on the Up Arrow Podcast
- “Leveraging Brand Collaborations To Scale Your Business With Andrew Heddle” on the Up Arrow Podcast
Quotable Moments
- You can say you're great… but if someone else is saying it, that's the trust factor.”
- “We're trying to merge the art and science together so performance-minded founders can value PR properly.”
- “If you're not excited about your product, how do you expect anyone else to be?”
- “Founders have this sixth sense about what the consumers want — before the consumers even know it.”
- “It's not just about one category. It could be a whole subsect of just natural products.”
Action Steps
- Align PR efforts with clear business goals: Whether aiming for acquisition, investment, or brand awareness, clarity ensures campaigns drive meaningful outcomes. Without defined objectives, PR efforts risk becoming disjointed and ineffective.
- Audit your internal and external brand narratives: Understanding both how your team sees the brand and how the media perceives it uncovers storytelling opportunities. This alignment helps ensure messaging is consistent, relevant, and media-ready.
- Make your product “media-ready” before pitching: Ensuring your product is available, well-packaged, and accessible for sampling improves media and influencer engagement. Reporters and creators are more likely to cover what they can physically experience.
- Train founders and spokespeople for media engagement: Effective media training improves interview quality, strengthens brand credibility, and increases the likelihood of favorable coverage. Unprepared spokespeople can damage relationships and miss key messaging opportunities.
- Leverage influencer campaigns to support retail launches: Featuring products in authentic, in-store influencer content builds buzz and validates retail partnerships. This strategy bridges DTC and retail efforts while enhancing consumer trust.
Sponsor for this episode
This episode is brought to you by Elumynt. Elumynt is a performance-driven e-commerce marketing agency focused on finding the best opportunities for you to grow and scale your business.
Our paid search, social, and programmatic services have proven to increase traffic and ROAS, allowing you to make more money efficiently.
To learn more, visit www.elumynt.com.
Episode Transcript
Intro 0:00
Welcome to the Up Arrow Podcast with William Harris, featuring top business leaders, sharing strategies and resources to get to the next level. Now let's get started with the show.
William Harris 0:16
Hey everyone, I'm William Harris. I'm the founder and CEO of Elumynt and the host of the Up Arrow Podcast, where I feature the best minds in e-commerce to help you scale from 10 million to 1 million to 100 million and beyond. As you up arrow your business and your personal life, Today's guest has been behind the curtain of some of the most explosive consumer brand launches of the last two decades, from Monster Energy and COVID to Bushwick Kitchen Honest Tea and dozens more. If you've ever wondered how a scrappy CPG brand goes from who's that to a can't miss shelf star without spending millions on paid ads. Matt Kovacs is the guy you call He's the president of Blaze PR, a top tier agency that's helped turn fledgling startups into cultural darlings, secured editorial love in every outlet that matters, and guided countless founders through the tricky terrain of scaling storytelling and earning attention the right way, not the gimmicky way. But here's what makes Matt different. He's not just a get you in Forbes guy. He's a growth strategist in disguise, helping brands use PR to attract investment, shape category dynamics and build reputations that actually convert. Today we're going deep into the actual science of buzz. Matt Kovacs, welcome to the show. Thank you for having me looking forward to chatting. Yeah, and I do want to give a shout out to Dr. Jeremy Weisz over at Rise25 he's the one who put us in touch. He's the one who actually produces my podcast. I don't know if I actually have ever mentioned that on the podcast before, but those who are wondering that is who produces my podcast, and he always is connected to some of the best people. And when he sent your information overall, I was like, yes, I've got to have this guy on. I will
Matt Kovacs 1:43
send him the $5 after this. This time,
William Harris 1:46
yeah, one quick announcement that we're going to dive right in. I do want to announce our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by Elumynt. Elumynt is an award winning advertising agency optimizing e-commerce campaigns around profit. In fact, we've helped 13 of our customers get acquired, with the largest one selling for nearly 800 selling for nearly 800,000,001 that IPO Ed. You can learn more on our website at Elumynt.com which is spelled elumynt.com that said, on to the good stuff. I want to talk about what great PR actually looks like. You know, the science and art of generating real momentum. And you have said before, something you told me is that you help founders get the big spike. What does that mean?
Matt Kovacs 2:25
I think, you know, it really is interesting when we start with any campaign and with founders and etc, is what are their goals? And I think many times people don't ask that. They just say, okay, cool, we're gonna hurry up and just send releases and pitches and do get you interviewed, and you'll get your name out there. But it's really, are they looking for acquisition funding? Is it just brand building, you know? Are they looking for their next, you know, their next big launch? So those are things that get them to think about a campaign. And I think that helps us in the start, and then through our timelines to understand what types of media to go for. And I think from there, we build out that type of program, and then, yes, obviously getting them the interviews, regardless of those three choices, you want to start to get their name out there and start to build them as an expert, the thought leadership in ways that they're looking at their ecosystem and what different media would be interested in learning. I think the other thing that we try and do is understand the beyond the CEO, again, the players within the company, because there's so many other opportunities. We audit the media for this, and we also audit the internal brand to understand what type of brands they've worked on, what type of stories they have their perspective. Because everyone it may be in the same company, but they look at it very differently. And I think that's really what brings it to life for different media, because it's a way to grow make the brand seem bigger, but grow that mind share overall. There
William Harris 3:45
are two philosophical things that you just talked about that I really appreciate, because we share that at our company. One is finding out what their actual goal is ahead of time. From an advertising perspective, we still believe that's important too, because if you're actually actively trying to raise a series B, or if you're trying to get acquired, or if you're trying to just, you know, gain market penetration with a new line, those all have some significant differences in what type of metrics we're actually going to be optimizing towards, and so knowing those goals does help guide the right strategy. And the other thing that you said, that I really appreciate is getting involvement in from other people in the team. I like where you went at that from the PR standpoint, again, on the advertising side, we bring in, for, you know, some of the brainstorms, we're bringing in people from customer service and people from other departments, because that's going to allow us to have a deeper insight into who their customers are. And so I, I love that you have this more integrated approach.
Matt Kovacs 4:35
It also gives more buy in, because, you know, there's always the one person in the company that wasn't included, and they chirp about, well, we should be doing this. We should be doing that. And you get them involved at a level that they understand, and if anything, it gets them to support it. And then be able to be a little mouthpiece out into the field, be it in the sales teams, if it's in the manufacturing facility, wherever it is, the more people you. Touch to understand what you're doing is going to help in the long
William Harris 5:02
run. How would you describe great PR?
Matt Kovacs 5:06
I think great PR really does a number of things. I think one, it helps to build that brand awareness and that stickiness. It makes the really the buy in from a consumer to understand it. And I think the third thing we look at is the great PR begets more. PR is when you start media to understand and come and ask, and when you reach out to them, they're like, yes, I've I've heard about it, I've read it, you've sent me st like that. You start to get that muscle memory for them. And I think that's an important factor. A lot of it is, you know, in the past, we used to say, oh, media lazy. They don't want to do they they want to be spoon fed. Now, it's the opposite, where they're overworked. There's less, you know, a lot of the newspapers, it's either freelancers or, you know, someone that has five different beats. So you want to try and help them, but you also want to show that these are true, newsworthy stories. There's things happening. There's ways to build these cases so that they come to say, Yes, I need to, I need to talk to this person. It is relevant. You know, help me. Help you.
William Harris 6:03
It reminds me of word of mouth in general, when you think about, let's just say, influencing your customer. And so you're able to reach your customer, and you win them over, and they tell five of their friends, and it's a really good thing, but if you're doing this on the PR side of things, if they tell their five friends, their five friends each have an audience of 500,000 people. And so this is a big amplifying opportunity,
Matt Kovacs 6:23
totally. And I think the other thing is, really a lot of the key journalists understand that, and when they start to speak, and you know, there are some agencies that will say, Oh, we'll get you in Forbes. And you touched on that earlier, but that's only one part of it, because that's your reach. You're reaching a certain audience that is going to be into Forbes. You really have to understand what, what the audiences can do for the brand. So if it is you want to reach moms, if you want to reach retails and buyers, like, if we need to own the trades for the first, you know, quarter of this program, you know, as brands look at it. And I think especially when it's the DTC market, understanding the other people you can touch that'll help them to be able to find, maybe partnerships, other types of aspects, influencers that can have a part of this type of journey. And I think that's a part of that element where you're, you know, the campaign that banging that drum really needs to go louder and louder, from from a ripple standpoint, I
William Harris 7:13
like that you brought up trade media, because you and I have talked about trade media, consumer media, and there was one thing you said that I really I hadn't considered before, is that beverage brands do better with a trading consumer media than supplement brands. Why?
Matt Kovacs 7:29
You know, it's interesting. I think, you know, through through the years, I think that beverage media trades really have a respect, and they shepherd the beverage brands through. They really look depend, you know, if it's a startup we've brought through, Kavita is a great story. You know, Kavita was in the kitchen, you know, the Bill Moses and Chakra, you created this brand, and the media generated to okay, that you're creating a whole new category, and you were able to create opportunities, and, you know, obviously trial and all those aspects, but everyone rallied behind it and was able to create this narrative beside it, of this, you know, probiotic, sparkling drink, and the flavors and the profile and in all those aspects supplements. You know, when we go, when we pitch our supplement clients, there's always that, you know, the raised eyebrow, the question mark, everyone's trying to knock it down. Do you have scientific studies, white papers, which, again, it's not a bad thing, because you want to make sure the efficacy everything's correct. But I think that they come in very skeptical, because a lot of the supplements, especially with Amazon, you know, there's so many supplements up there that just someone you know in their garage has, you know, a pill, a pill case thing, just making supplements. And I think that you know, rightly so, they do it, but it's not as welcoming as the beverage media. The beverage media wants to learn and do more, and we just launched a brand here in the US called wrecked wrecked drinks came from more the web, 3.0 you know, crypto world that they created a true product, and their goal was to, let's go. Beverages are much more, you know, all encompassing for consumers. And it was the beverage media was like, that's different. That's weird. It's like, let me, let me get into that. Because, you know, if you're not into crypto, you're gonna say, Okay, I don't get it. Or you think it's the, you know, The Wolf of Wall Street Boys, or any of that stuff. So it's interesting how beverage media looks at it versus, you know, the the way that supplement media is has just a different eye. And that's the only way we can sort of break it down, and
William Harris 9:21
that's fair. I think it's fair to have a different eye in those two like I can see it maybe logically, or at least anecdotally, that beverages don't necessarily have to be good for you, even though some of them might be claiming that they are, they don't necessarily have to be, right? We've got plenty of pop stuff like that. For the most part. Supplement is is meant to have this intended effect, and so it has to be looked at a little bit more, you know, intensely, yeah,
Matt Kovacs 9:45
and in the claims, I mean, again, that's part of it too. Is, if you know, we come in with these claims that it's going to make you stronger, faster, you know, all the elements. But it's also, you know, we try and build, in that case, we're also building the background of the chief scientific officer, the CEOs. You. Why they're in this industry where, again, a lot of those Amazon supplement brands are not gonna have that backstory. They're just looking to move product, and we're trying to help build
William Harris 10:08
a brand. Yeah, I like that. Something that Clayton, Christopher told me he was the founder of Waterloo Sparkling Water and a few other brands, right, is that it all comes down to taste, that if it doesn't taste good, it doesn't really matter. You know, any of the other things that you're doing at some point in time, people just have to get liquid to lips. Is the term that he used. Do a lot of the activations with, let's just say, beverage brands. But even moving outside of beverage brands, are there some? Is there? Almost always some type of get the product in the hands of the people?
Matt Kovacs 10:40
Yeah, I think that's our number one influencer strategy. Is to really get product out there, because you want to have these advocates, this army of people that are not only creating the content, but they like the product, they believe in it. They actually, you know, enjoy the flavors. And that's a lot of the work we do is to understand, you know, within that profiles of each influencer, you know, which ones, some, you know, can't do caffeine. Some can't, you know, if we have any of the, you know, the natural caffeine, or any of the natural ones. So it's really understanding that to be as efficient as you can. And I think the other thing is, when you look at it from taste and flavor, you know, there's so many different profiles now, and different, you know, guava this, and you have different aspects that they have from previous experiences of preconceived notions of, oh, I don't like guava, and you're like, but no, have you tried this one? Have, you know, go, go down that path? And a lot of times, you know, they'll give it that chance, because I think it is interesting for them. And they also, there's many times they don't have that fear of missing out that, hey, you know, everyone else, all the other you know, 1000s of influencers got the product, I didn't, and, you know, it's taking off as like the next big thing.
William Harris 11:42
It's so powerful the fear of missing out. When the David protein bars were going around there, it felt like everybody in DTC was talking about them, like, not even like your normal influencers, but like the DTC SaaS influencers all somehow had these David protein bars, and we're talking about it as well, totally. When I think about what a product needs to be, to be media ready, what? What would you say makes a product? You're like, yes, you're ready to take this to the PR level, I
Matt Kovacs 12:10
think there's a couple of things we look at is, you know, it's interesting, because as people start this journey, they're, you know, they're already in their mindset of, you know, it's at the Amazon facility. It's at, you know, these places we talk about, you need to have product ready for us to send out, because media will be interested. They'll talk about it, but until back to that original point, lips, you know, the liquid to lips, or just product in trial, that's the way that media really can understand it, because there is so much more product going out to them that that's a big factor. And a lot of times it's not baked into the budgets are baked into, okay, oh, we hired the agency. Oh, we got to send product out, or we have to get trial that way. And then, you know, a lot of times you get into operational issues of, well, we only come, you know, we only create cases, and we're not going to send, okay, to someone we want. You know, it again, it's better to send or because what's funny, when you send to influencers in New York, the last thing someone living in a high rise or an apartment wants to have to carry two cases. And so there's ways to be more feasible that way. So we try and help them with either houses that can do that different shipment places. Well, our interns get to do fun shipment mailer type things. But those things, again, they're tactical, and they're tiny, but they add up, because that limits coverage, that limits aspects. And then I think the other thing is understanding feedback, because the last thing you this is your baby, you've launched it. Reporter X might say, I love, you know, love Blaze, love what you do. I'm not going to write about it because I didn't like it. And then you give that feedback back to the, you know, the brand, and they're like, why? But this was our best tested. This was, you know, this, this and this. And it's interesting, that dichotomy of getting that information back, and we start with our programs, doing a media audit, where we really interview reporters. We have a list of questions we want to understand how they like to be, you know, introduced to this brand, you know, giving just some of that perspective, because they're the gatekeepers of information. They're being pitched and spammed all the time. So it's a way that, from a baseline standpoint, we can go back to the brand and say, Okay, here's where we are. From a reporter standpoint, you try and get like, 20 or 30 is a good sort of baseline to understand overall. And then there's a good discussion around it, and then then they understand we're sending product out, pitches, releases, that there is a longer journey. There's not just people waiting there, you know, pen in hand to write a story. There's that selling aspect that happens as well.
William Harris 14:27
Yeah, yeah. I actually never even thought about this idea of walking up a flight of stairs, or several flights of stairs with that.
Matt Kovacs 14:36
Yeah, I've gotten yelled at many times from reporter of like, why did you send me three cases. Yeah,
William Harris 14:41
it's so it's so nuanced, but it's like, if I was going to just go out there and do this, I wouldn't know that, because I haven't done it before. And it's interesting. I mean, I remember having when I first got some weights, because I don't have flights of stairs to go up, and so I shipped out some weights, and it was like 300 pounds of weights or something. And it's like, the, you know, the poor person taking this off the tree. Like, no big deal, though, because I can just take it over to my, you know, my barn here, our garage, whatever, very easily. But I can imagine if I had to take that up three flights of stairs, I would be a little bit disappointed,
Matt Kovacs 15:09
and then that hurts the experience. It's like, yes, Do I even want this? Now? I brought it up. And, yeah, exactly,
William Harris 15:15
yeah. Um, you started hinting at this already, a little bit about, like, how you guys approach some of these campaigns. But what does a successful campaign actually look like for the first 90 days?
Matt Kovacs 15:25
Yeah, I think what we look at in that 90 days, because it really is, again, is everything time is shrinking. You know, we want to make sure within those first 30 days we have all our obviously, the ducks in a row, the press releases, the pitches, the boilerplates, the bios, et cetera. But also, we're starting to tease out to media right away. Hey, we're working with this brand. You know, it's sort of a whisper campaign of, hey, we're working with them. We're gonna get information if you're working in any current stories. This might be applicable, and here's why, and that, you know, the goal, we always challenge ourselves, within those first couple weeks to try and get, you know, it media interested, so that you're getting back to their clients saying, hey, this person X wants to talk to you and put you in a podcast, etc. What it does? I think there's strategically for us. We're showing results quickly. It is all about the results. But also it puts the client on, not a defensive standpoint, but like, Oh, this is real now. Like, it helps to get that mindset of like, oh, people want to talk to us. I can. It's not a, you know, transactional thing that you get, okay, you guys take this over. Now it's now the relationship, and I think that's really helped us as well, because then it's, it's setting the right tone for everyone to have understanding of now you have an agency, and now this happens, and now you have to bake that time into it. And it's, it's really helped us from that direction, to start on the right foot.
William Harris 16:43
You talked about this whisper campaign, and that's a word that I've heard before. But like, when I hear you say it like this, it makes me think, is it better to get it in the hands of, let's just say, someone like these bigger writers as a whisper campaign, or, like, before you've gone to influencers, or is it better to get a little bit of like influencer leverage first, before you bring it to them? Do you want to have some traction first? I
Matt Kovacs 17:08
think there's but in each case is different. And I think the other thing is, depending on the goals. Again, if it's more about brand building, we would influencers can get you going faster because they're waiting. They can do stuff there's a little bit of both, because the trades take sometimes a little bit longer, depending on what they're working on and their editor. And their editorial calendars and the time of year, depending on which trade shows are going on. So there's ways to look at it, but from a nuanced standpoint of ways to element. The other thing is, you could do the whisper to the meat traditional media, but at the same time, have the influencers start posting. Because then, as you're getting the dialog going, you can say, Well, look, you know, this person down the street from you is already posting about it, so you can see it's happening, so that it doesn't feel like they have to be the first ones to, you know, cross the finish line and write about it. They can say, okay, it's it's a thing. It's happening. And I think that's an important factor with it as well. And that's where you have those relationships with influencers that sometimes you get to move to the front of the line and say, Hey, can you think you post about this soon, you know, those types of things. And it's really a way, I think that as the influencers have gotten more credibility and their numbers grow, and with Tiktok and all those aspects, we've treated them just like media from probably from day one. I mean, they get invited to events, they get there's not, like the cool kit for media, and then, like the average kit for influencers. It's really been that type of embracing what they do and respecting and honoring that I think that's helped
William Harris 18:25
Yeah, they are a version of the media right to a point. Yeah, yeah. How about you talked about helping founders get on, you know, Forbes, or just becoming thought leaders in general? And I think that there's a lot of importance from a SaaS background, that was something that we focused on a lot for some reason that was just in my mind, never thought about it from CPG. It's like I thought that was more product focused, but like, what are the ways that you're helping founders become thought leaders, and why? Why is it important, even if CPG brands, for the founders, to be at the forefront of this?
Matt Kovacs 18:56
I think it's been a trend for a few years that the founders have this sixth sense about what the consumers want. I mean, you go back to, you know, Steve Jobs in the in the iPad, you know that the consumer doesn't need it, but they're going to want it. And it's that same thing when you look at it, especially with what we've gone through over the past, you know, five years, be it supply chain, now, tariffs and all those aspects. These are people that are more on the front lines, and the founders can speak to it in a different way. And so much of it now, you know, it's not just about one category. It could be a whole subsect of just natural foods, natural products. And I think that, you know, the Forbes reporters that are out there covering it are looking for those next level, you know, Seth Goldman's from Austin tea, or Honest Tea, and those aspects, because they look at it from a different lens. They're out there with some ingredient suppliers, and they're looking at it from the retailer and buyer issues, and they have a different handle on it, I think then, you know, trend, transitional things, as well as all the things going on out at retail, the mergers happening, you know, with Kroger and Albertsons, try you that almost happened. You have all these things that they have so many different. Hurdles they go through that giving them that platform, be it Forbes, you know, Inc., Business Insider, for them to be able to tell that story, I think is really relevant for, you know, again, businesses that look outside that world. And, you know, I think that's been come a big factor, and then it helps, you know, the the traditional media and the trades look at it like, okay, cool, you were in Forbes. Now, like that does become sort of a badge, and I think that's something they like to, you know, hang their hat on.
William Harris 20:25
There are some potential downsides to founders being too much of the forefront, too Right? Like, if a founder ends up doing the wrong thing, that's a downside. But I would even say, just like the decoupling of them as a human being when post acquisition, it's something that I've run into with a lot of founders. We've helped a lot of founders get acquired. What are your thoughts on that?
Matt Kovacs 20:44
I think it's not unlike, you know, when people say, Why don't you work with celebrities or athletes? And that's one of the first things we say, is because you're dealing with the human element. You get a DUI they, you know, other you know, criminal things happen, or even just, you know, a wrong tweet, you know, these days that happens. So I think the transition of the CEO as the face and the voice, it does start to back off when the product starts the attraction and it starts to have aspects. And that's part of that original meeting where you're bringing in the whole team and the whole not even just the marketing departments, but other aspects, because there's opportunity to speak to operations, to speak to manufacturing, so that we can have a broader base this, you know, the founder, CEO, etc, is still gonna be at the forefront for, you know, the larger opportunities. But then we do start to pull the levers and have different, you know, aspects. And there's some times where it's just product focus. Product is the hero. We're gonna go all into this leading up to a trade show or leading up to an event, and then that's the way that then when the founder comes, there's not just fatigue. Of like, I've been reading about you for five months. Why do I want to talk to you again? You really have to balance that in a way that makes sense. Yeah,
William Harris 21:49
no, that makes a lot of sense, that fat fatigue can set in for anything. And so having different stories, like you said, not just the founder, but different people within the team, the product itself gives you know, both sides
Matt Kovacs 22:01
too. I think there's fatigue on the on the founder, sure, Groundhog Day telling the same story, you know, 100 times. But it does help, you know, again, to give the give it a breather. Have other people come forward, and it energizes the story. Yeah,
William Harris 22:14
buddy of mine was in a pretty big band. I want to say they did, you know, anywhere between 100 300 shows a year. And that was something that he mentioned is that it's like to you, you're very excited to hear that song that they've played 800 million times into them. Sometimes it's the same song and it's like, yeah, all right, we gotta do this song again. Everybody wants this song. And so I can see that I want to start working through helping DTC founders overcome their skepticism of PR. When we talk to a lot of DTC owners, one of the things that they struggle with is they're very quick to spend money on ads, but then they worry a little bit about PR. Part of that is because I think they come from a performance background. They're looking at em er, they're looking at ROAs. You know, how do you how do you explain the ROI of PR to somebody who's so used to looking at a meta dashboard. I think
Matt Kovacs 23:01
there's a couple of things. I think the first thing is, there are so many more services now that will give us data that we can then share with founders as well, and again, executives, et cetera, to say, here's what the reach and the impressions and the value is of coverage. So you go it that way, and it's not an exact science, because it does get passed around. You know, the numbers are the numbers, but you look at it that way, we try and do some of the comparables to different, you know, be it CPM or the ad. You know that looking at it from that and again, it's not exact, but it's a way for PR to at least speak in that language. The other thing is, we try and tell the story of just the third party validation in the brand building, and then having these other, you know, we'll say army or disciples of people with your brand, that that's how you're going to really get it authentically. Because you can say you're great to your point, run the ads. You can do all those things. But if you have someone else saying, try this. I you know, I liked it. They tried. It's the trust factor. That's where the influencers come in. And then the other thing we do is, it's called like a call, like an impact index, but it's a way, you know, we live in a five star society. It's a way to really teach at the very beginning, okay, what are the five things you want to see in a placement? Is it, you know, the call to action, the backlinks that, you know, a photo, a quote, whatever those are. And then we can rate every piece of coverage. And it's a way that you're setting it that, okay, this was a four, you know, four star piece of coverage. Here's our monthly average. Is a, you know, 4.2 like you're there's ways that you're using data to quantify the PR in a qualitative way that gets them, you know, in that so it's, it's not that it's like voodoo math, or, you know, any of that, but we're trying to merge the art and science together so that your point. They stare at numbers all day, and they can look at it, and then also it gives us the factor, if a piece of coverage comes out, and it's like a lot of ones and twos, that helps us to say, okay, the messaging is not working. You know, when your interviews, you've been tanking, and this proves that you've tanked, sure you and you know, we need to maybe do some more media training, or do some more elements, so it's a way to really engage and guide this. In a way that that helps everyone, you know it, because it's not like a published, oh my god, that was a, you know, a 2.8 interview, but it's a way that it just gives it back to the point of baselines and level setting. It's a way that we try and do that and give those numbers.
William Harris 25:13
Media training is such an interesting thing. I remember seeing some, I think it's like Charisma on demand or something like that, has some really good stuff on YouTube, and seeing some early examples of The Rock, you know, Dwayne Johnson in some of his interviews, and it was like, wow, that was legitimately bad. Like, you should not be in front of a camera to where he is now. And he's very charismatic. He's able to take this into stories and tangents and do a good job. And I can imagine that when you're working with, you know, a very technical founder. There are a lot of moments where you're just like, I need to get you behind here, but we need to do a little work here. How do you go about getting founders trained up to really be media ready?
Matt Kovacs 25:55
I think so. We have a media training program, but I also think we try and say, you know, and sometimes it can be harsh, but like, pretend you're talking to a human. Like, think outside of your balance. And these can't be the sound bite. Answers are great, but it can't be so technical and inside baseball that the person on the other side doesn't understand it. And a good example would be the brands that come in, and they get so wrapped up in what their brand is that it's hard for them to articulate because that excitement comes through, which is great, comes through, which is great. You know, one things we always talk about is you have to be excited about your product 100% we go through that from we have a whole program, we go through and then we film on camera experiences. And then, back to the point of all the shareholders, you know, the other people in the room, we have them grade, the the interviews, the role play. And so it's a way that you're having, you know, you're your your team is a part of it. You're experiencing it together. It's not just one on one media training. It's really messaging training for the whole organization of people that can be potential spokespeople, and not spokespeople per se, for media. But you know, the head of sales is going to be talking to a buyer and a retailer, so you want to have that same voice there as that if someone read the article that things match, it's not that the buyer saying, you know, we're this, and the CEO says that, and marketing, you know, sending out ads and messages, that's the third thing. We try to unify that in a way. And then we do it on a quarterly basis. You know, we do there's refreshes, there's, hey, let's watch this interview together. Let's see, you know, what we saw, some things it takes time, you know, just from an overall messaging standpoint, and especially when founders maybe aren't used to speaking in front of be it cameras or media that often. So I think that's an element of that media training every time is, here's what we saw and didn't see we obviously send along. Here's the coverage wrap, here's the impressions, the value, the impact index. But also here's some things to work on. There's some more constant trying to get them to understand it, but not at the point of them being annoyed. You know, it's that another balance where you have to go, okay, criticism is good at to a certain point.
William Harris 27:54
Yeah? In fairness, Steve Jobs maybe wasn't the right person at first, but he developed into the right person with time, right? And you kind of figured that out, yeah. So you're, you're there are ways that you're able to, like you said, somewhat sort of quantify the quality of the PR and what's taking place. I would say that one of the things that we're looking for on our side are increases in brand searches. And so not just on, you know, organic brand searches, but brand searches that we're seeing showing up in in the paid side of things, but then we're also seeing just an increase in conversion rate in general, right as a result of that. There are more people that are now primed and ready to buy that all of a sudden, your prospecting campaigns on Facebook and meta might be performing better as a result of that. So you have to look at it and say, was it necessarily a change that you did within the meta platform, or is it because of the PR that you're doing and they're just coupling together and working together and working well together? And I think a lot of people sometimes maybe miss those aspects of the that, you know, secondary effect.
Matt Kovacs 28:49
What, I think too, now you layer in the AI search and what, how everyone's starting to migrate over there, and that's where the PR aspects, because it's, it's faster, it's going to get more information. You're not going through all the ads and through all the other gobbledygook that's there now, and that's what we try and aim to explain as well. Of like these have to be that your interviews have to be that much tighter, your the written EQ and as have to have a lot of the keywords, there's ways that is going to help overall, and you're seeing that change, and I think it's from the internal the PR training of how to just sort of change the messaging and then externally with clients so they understand it. And even we've done quick zooms to show clients how this stuff works now, because some of them are so again, they're lost in their sauce, which is great, but we need to show and navigate what's happening out there in the real world for them to understand.
William Harris 29:37
I love that you called AI searches, because if we think about the breakdown of how AI searches work, right, it's basically saying this is what it expects to be, the next word after the thing that it just did, and the way that it has more relevancy of seeing your word, your brand, be the thing that it thinks is next to follow within this is for there to be more instances of that within its training, the way that you. More instances of that within its training is through PR. PR, I think, is one of the best things that you can do. Good PR, then, is going to lead towards, let's just even say, more of your articles, your brand name, showing up at the top of different articles on Google search. And so when it starts doing its research and deep research, and it finds you, it means that people are potentially talking about you more in Reddit, because by being exposed out in the world, you're going to have people talking both negatively and positively about you. That means that they're going to forums, they're going to be talking about you more. That conversation is something that AI relies on heavily, and so by simply having more exposure, more opportunities out there outside of advertising, that creates a lot more opportunity for AI searches to show you,
Matt Kovacs 30:43
yeah, and I think that we've seen in a number of those ways, especially when it's if there's a negative connotation or negative elements around the brand, ways to counteract that, to almost call it out, is this bad for you? Here's why, you know, here's why this brand is not bad for you. Answer the question that, and then the AI sort of gets tripped up in that. But it's in a good way, because then you're able to tell that narrative in the right path. And then we make sure that those aspects and back to your point, that what is the next words that comes out in be it press releases or interviews or ways that we can affect that? It's been again, it's been interesting. We've gone through I was talking to this this morning with a client. We've learned through knowing the reporters first name and sitting with them and having a drink to the bloggers, bloggers, influencers, and now AI. So we're pitching, pitching everything.
William Harris 31:31
Yeah, no, that's good. It is. Yeah, coming all the way around. Where do you draw the line between brand gut and marketing data?
Matt Kovacs 31:40
I think more and more it's on the data side. I think the gut can only get you so far. And I think the data these days, you really need it in a number of levels. And I think that that's where, when you look at it from the what we try and do, as well as have sales in a lot of our meetings and a lot of our updates and a lot of our things, because sales has so much of that data, that consumer data, shopper data, that the marketing can be that gut and, you know, look, and I like this, but the sales data is going to tell us the real story and which products work, which people, you know, what people gravitate towards, flavor wise. And again, new flavors come out all the time, but like, where are we going to double down? Where are we going to look at it that way? And I think the data has been something that's why we've incorporated so much more you know, recaps and stories and aspects, because then we're at least speaking, we're at the table, speaking the right language, versus just no this is great. Look how, you know, look how big this was in the paper. But is it? You know, do people read the paper anymore? You know what? Who's your audience, all those aspects. But I think the data can really help us in a number of ways. And there's media that want to get data, and, you know, obviously, clients, obviously, but customers, brands don't want to share sales data. Don't want to share a lot of the elements. But if we can share trends, if we can share, you know, aspects in that regard, That's data that's invaluable for reporter that then that helps us to garden more coverage. Because they're, they're coming from a factual standpoint, not just, you know, the brand thinks that, you know, grape is gonna be the trend next year. It's more about here's why, here's the new trends, here's why Guava is taking off, or the new why spicy honeys and spicy things are happening because of the trends with the data to back it up.
William Harris 33:12
Do you end up doing some of this, like behind the door, type of PR work? And I'll explain what I mean by that. There was a company that I worked with called sell bright. And we did it was a SaaS company for optimizing listings and inventory management for Amazon. And one of the things that we wanted to rank for was just Amazon, like, the term of Amazon, because we could rank for people that are, you know, Amazon listings, things like that, rather than putting together a, you know, fluffy PR piece, whatever, we put together a really good infographic about how Amazon makes its money. And then, because of that, it was a lot easier to get into some of the PR outlets. I think we got linked to by Wall Street Journal, because it was an infographic breaking down the ways that Amazon makes its money. That's a very indirect thing. We don't deal with how Amazon makes its money. We're dealing with Amazon listings, but we wanted to rank higher for some of these Amazon terms, and so that allowed us to get some of this relevancy from an SEO standpoint. Is that still a play or not really?
Matt Kovacs 34:13
I think what we try and do, I'd say yes and but we do a lot of qualitative and quantitative research, so we do a lot of surveys, we do a lot of data gathering, trying to find out in those trends around you know, here's packaging trends. Would you rather have one that's simple? Or do you care about plastic? The whole world's talking about it, or media wise of everything needs to be compostable, recyclable. But customers are telling us the opposite, because they just want convenience price. They want to see the product. They don't want to hidden. In this ways we look at it. So we have data to say, look, here's the moms that are the shoppers, 25 to 35 living in the North Pacific Northwest. Here's what they said. We did a survey, and it's tied back to the brand, so you're looking at it where it's been more evolved. There used to be. Other like surveys you would do that would get in the USA Today, you know, infographic and talk about it that way, but really being able to have data that way, and there's so many easier programs now, you know, over just cell phones getting texts, you know, yes or no, and you get that, and you're able to get information really quickly, to be able to then tell a story. And it's stuff that we also share, we try and do with clients with that's why the sales team's in. Hey, if we got data, we could get, would that help you in your sales meeting? Yes. So now what we need to do that data can then be parsed out. We can do a PR story around it. We can save it for an interview that the client can then share with the reporter, or, you know, again, the sales team can then use it to be able to say, hey, we did a survey. We did an inform survey with different customers. Here's the and then we can give them all the back end data of who we spoke to, you know, the timing, all those aspects. So those are important factors, versus back to the point of just, can't just be gut, so all those aspects have to have some sort of data.
William Harris 35:53
I love that. I want to dig into some real examples of some of the stuff that you've done, because you've done some really impressive stuff. And I want to learn from that. Let's start with Bushwick Kitchen. How did PR help turn hot honey into an acquisition ready
Matt Kovacs 36:08
brand? Yeah, I think it's, you know, a lot of timing is everything, obviously. And I think the we started with them right before COVID. So when you looked at it from, you know, telling those stories, and they had just started to come out with actual gift packs, you would get the hot honey, the sriracha and the spicy maple. So telling that story was interesting and fun, and being able to get in the CNN Christmas lists and all those aspects. But then when everyone was hunkered down in second home and everyone became a home chef, those types of sauces and flavors and international flavors started to come more to the forefront. So we're able to ride that wave and really tell deeper stories. And then you saw just flavor profiles, and people want to try different things. I think that's where hot honey has become such a crazy, just steamroller that hasn't stopped. I mean, you're seeing it everywhere in the other thing is the sriracha spike, and then the shortages. Now again, the spike, the shortages happened. Bushwick was still chugging along, and be able to say, Hey, over here, we have plenty of it, so we're able to capitalize that way, and be able to speak to it, and then start to educate media of how, why is there a shortage? It's crazy that you'd have one, one specific sauce would be, you know, shortage. So those are aspects we did from a strategic standpoint, to be able to grow for them. And then the other thing was start to create more partnerships. So looking for opportunities for them, not only at like, the street level. So there was a couple of, like, bakeries in Brooklyn that started to use their hot honey then we had more of, like, some of the pizza chains that were super regional. Now we're doing a partnership with Santa Monica brew works, where they're going to have a hot honey blonde ale. So it's funny like that. You look at it, and it's not that it's become just the buzzword, but there's the quality behind it and the fact that it measures up and that, you know, they've won a number of awards with it, which is always important in that category. And then for them, they get back to DTC brands, it's just great content for them to be able to share and tout and send out, you know, five time gold winner in this contest, and you know this, they're winning. They're going up against some big brands, and then you look at what other trough and all the other sort of sauce and hot, hot brands that have come out, it just sort of lists the category. And people are looking for differences, and they have a fun, fun bottle packaging, the way they present it, the way it's delivered, versus other brands. It all sort of lends itself together. And I think that's the way we were able to really categorize that and carry it through. I
William Harris 38:21
like that you talk about lifting up the category. How much do you think hot honey would have taken off if you hadn't done the PR for Bushwick kitchens, like, like, did you create the category? More or less,
Matt Kovacs 38:31
I think what's funny at your point, I think there's just was the influx of everything, from mics, from all the brands that came up, and at least somewhat became regionalized, and you heard about it in different areas, and I think that it just became a flavor profile that was of interest and differentiator. And because it became, again, the COVID at home thing, what could you get? What was, you know, available, and be able to try it that way? And I think that's where it's it's continued. And I think the aspects of other partnerships that you Bushwick, had gotten as well, it was the Mike's Hard, so you're able to have other people touting about the quality and then the fact that they would partner, and it's an exciting journey. And they've come out with the honey combs, the honey sticks, and different ways to look at it, not all spicy, but it's just owning that honey category overall.
William Harris 39:16
I love brand collaborations. I had Andy heddle on here as well. He's now the head of Winnebago, but before he was doing a lot of brand collaborations, and this idea of getting, again, going back to liquid ellipse, just this idea of flavor by getting the honey into, like pizza shops, people are now trying the hot Honey by getting it to the, you know, to be a to, I think you Pale Ale. I forget what kind of beer you said, right? But it's like to getting it to be a part of a beer and all these different things. It gives people the opportunity to get exposure to potentially a flavor that they are now creating demand for. How do you go about figuring out what are the right collaborations for a brand versus the wrong ones? Yes.
Matt Kovacs 40:00
So for a collaboration standpoint, it's interesting, because if you look at food trends now, it's all about collabs and Franken foods and all these over the top foods, and a number of our brands are looking for more of those like minded. They want to have quality, they want to have taste, flavor profiles, things that really match. And I think that's the way we really look at it. And the other thing that I don't think is taken into account as much is the values the values, the brand values we look at it. You know, for Bushwick, they have a very true they know their true north. They know what they're about. They're wholesome people, you know, salt of the earth. So when we have potential calls and we make introductions, you can tell if it's going to work or not. If the other, you know, the other brand is like, we just, we like to do these. We get in and out. We're just going to sell it, and it and it helps us. You know, overall, that's not how, you know, Bushwick likes to work. It's much more of a deeper, honest level, in that way. And I think those are things you can sort of understand that's back to gut of that aspect of knowing, you know, it's just not going to work well, because they're going to be moving, you know, 10,000 miles an hour, they're going to move slower, they're not going to be able to keep up. So I think that's a factor. And I think the other thing we always are cognizant of is not so much the media in general, but the trade media. Are they going to look at this and say, What are you doing? What is what is like in that? That's because we build those relationships, then we have those conversations. Now you've started off almost on the fence of like, look, it was a thing. We did it. It it feels like you're, you know, you cheated on them. So I think those are that they because it really can hurt the credibility of the brand, but it's been interesting to be a part of that, and we're seeing more and more of those. Bushwick is with will be part of Taco Bell's program next year. Really. Yeah, they was announced earlier this year when the Taco Bell did the their big unveil, so that'll be exciting. So there's ways that they're, you know, as they ratchet up, that we're able to capitalize on that, from PR standpoint and and back to the point of, you know, they can put in that time, effort and energy to make sure these will be solid partnerships. I love
William Harris 41:55
that. Let's talk pickle juice used PR to attract investment. How?
Matt Kovacs 42:00
I think it's interesting, because pickle juice is one of those brands, again, that created a category so much like Kavita, and you know, that we worked on, you know, the in it's the thing we always fight against. It's not pickle Brian. It's a scientific formula. It's the neurological response that, you know, people have when they get cramps. And so this really comments that. And, you know, you drink it right away. It gets into your your system, and it helps to defeat it. And the interesting thing is, we're their only external spend. They don't do any they have no other agent. They don't endorse any athletes that way. They're very much about product first, and we're here to help the storytelling and build that up. And again, talk to the executives have them tell the story, be able to explain it, because the first thing a reporter says, Oh, I love pickle juice when I get the pickles and I drink the brine, and then we have to stop right away and say, that's not what we are. It's a scientific formulation. It has the taste and flavor of it, and that's where, you know, obviously, the name came from, but it's a way that we're able to tell that story. And the great thing is, because it's used at the professional level, in so many layers and levels, be it Australian Rugby, all you know, the US Open, Wimbledon, the and it's the iconic little bottle, the yellow cap, the NFL. There's the famous Eagles cowboys playoff game that was the pickleball, because there was the pickle juice save to help the eagles to win the game. So you have these factors that that have come across, but what we've done is really ratchet that up. Because in the past, it was just happened, we made sure that there's highlights around it. There was a rain Texas Rangers pitcher this year that had the pickle juice game. They've called it, and his, there's great stats, his stats before he had the pickle juice, his stats after now he's taken off, and I think, really think, he's made the all star team. I gotta double check that. But he's just, it's that confidence that he has. Now, there's a couple Dodger players that use pickle juice, and now they're starting to put it in the dugouts. You'll see, like the lineup of the pickle juice. Because, again, we look at the climate, it's hotter, you know, you're out there, you have the athletes performing at 510, degree hotter temperatures. They're cramping more, and this is a way to really combat that. And part of that now is we're going after different influencers in the construction, in the home building, all the outdoor type elements, where it helps, because they're out there, yes, they're being hydrated, but it's a way to talk about in a broader sense that it's not just for extreme athletes or athletes or just cyclists or, you know, whatever you're able to tell that broader story. And obviously at night, if you get that leg cramp, you know, in your calf as you're sleeping, you know, down, the pickle juice will go away. So there's ways that it becomes more of a all inclusive brand, and it doesn't feel like it's just for the elite.
William Harris 44:39
Sounds like this is what sports drinks used to be like, before they became just mostly sugar. This reminds me of so believe it, I did roofing when I was in junior high, and I can remember getting up on a roof six in the morning. We'd be there till 10 at night. And if I didn't have, like, a banana or something to how to have some of the things I can remember just like cramping up and it's like your arm is stuck, and you're like, I can't. Bend my arm right now. Hold on. One second.
Matt Kovacs 45:02
Yes. Oh, 100% Yeah. And it's, I had a cramp, man, maybe about five months ago. Same thing. You hobbled to the kitchen, got out the pickle juice, and it instantly just loosens up and goes away. It's that sort of a miracle type drink that's incredible.
William Harris 45:16
Did you do anything different, though? Because, I mean, this led towards an investment. Was there something different about the strategy? It was like, great. That's part. Like, great. That's part of your goals to get investment
Matt Kovacs 45:25
is there? I would say the biggest difference, when we look at it for other brands is part one was the education campaign and combating the brine versus what pickle juice is. So that took a really and that's become more and more prevalent. And again, when if someone writes an article and says, I love Brian, and this helped my cramps. We send them an article or send them a letter that is educating them in that way. We've had numerous media that have said, Hey, I didn't know that. Let me try. Let me try, let me and then sort of re-educate them. And then you get that second article that says, hey, you know, this is what it really is. I think that's a big factor. And I think the other thing is back to, you know, liquid on the lips, you know, getting organizing this review program. So we have reporters that are getting product on a regular basis. We know that the teams they probably have, I think a third of the NFL gets their product and pays for it. This isn't, they don't donate the product. This is all paid for the pallets of product. And then we highlight that in those local markets. Hey, you know the Buffalo Bills have, you know, pickle juice now, as part of, part of their army, we just make sure that all the broadcast teams, you know, they've gotten all the information around it, because it happens during the game, hearing them say, hey, get that guy pickle juice. Like it's becoming such a it feels like the, you know, the baba buoy for a while, when that would get yelled out for Howard Stern, where it's pickle juice has become known in that aspect. And when we get those clips, like the Australian Rugby for a long time was the only place that it was really would be every game you'd see the bottle, and we would share those clips here in the US, but now you're seeing it more and more in tennis. Is like our prime. We follow the tour from the French to Wilmington, Cincinnati. You know that down to the US Open, because the heat on those courts is insane, and the Australian Open sort of starts it because, you know, it's their summer moment, it's our winter, but they have crazy temperatures. And we're able to tell that story because, you know, a lot they can't. They're not sponsoring these athletes, and a lot of the athletes do have your point, the the powerades, the Gatorades, you know, as their sponsors, so they have to, like, sneak it, and you have it looks like they're vaping it the way they drink it. It's this, like, hidden thing, but it's a big aspect of being able to share that and people get excited about it. You know, back to the beverage media, they've enjoyed that journey and be able to see it, you know, become that bigger product.
William Harris 47:37
You talked about the clips and being able to use those, what's the unwritten rules that we need to know about as far as using some of the things that have occurred in media about your brand? And I'm gonna start it with a story. There was a brand that we worked with sold coats, really, really nice coats, and whenever Meghan Markle would wear their coats, their sales would just absolutely skyrocket. J Lo didn't hardly move the thing right, like other celebrities, but Meghan Markle did, and it would just take off like insane. But they were already, for obvious reasons, hesitant about really ever using that in any way. And so it did take off from a PR standpoint, but they didn't really reuse this content. Are there ways in which you say it's safe to reuse these types of clips, like, you know, a celebrity drinking pickle juice or something, and, you know, turning it into something for your own social media, or is it like, no, don't do that. It's tacky. You will end up losing, you know, faith in this community.
Matt Kovacs 48:28
There's a couple of things, I think. One is, you're seeing more and more these clips and even stills used in social media, because it's still the wild, wild west, and it's, you know, a post happens or a story, and it's gone, you know, the next day. So, and I think that's where you're able to sort of, on some level, use it to your advantage. And I think a lot of times that, because of the shrinking traditional media, they're not as litigious of going after people for using these clips, that it's okay in that world. In the other thing we're seeing is, you know, there is to your point. What's the gray area on people's websites? It's a lot more friendly to say as seen in and have like the logos, that's places where the publications aren't as upset. But if you print like the whole article and it looks like it's on your site, we'll get those letters of take it down, or, you know, CIS type stuff. So it's that fine line, but I think social is really where those things can live and can help to tell that story and be something that you can go back to and again every time that Rangers pitch your pitches now, where, if there's a story that comes to, hey, remember the pickle juice game? Hey, here's his dad's ways and something the Rangers are doing as well, which is awesome. It's a way that you see this to become a thing. And I think that's that sort of unwritten rule of what's the the ways to use
William Harris 49:42
coverage, yeah, yeah, it's a dance, right? And you just got to figure out how to dance with the right partner. What about Eastern sports? I understand there's a good barnstorming story here, which reminds me of the old Atari game, but tell me a little bit about barnstorming with Easton sports.
Matt Kovacs 49:58
So I'll start. Of the story with, you know, Easton hockey is no longer with us anymore. So it is. It was a sad, sad time when that went, you know, it was acquired and sort of dissolved. But the Easton, you know, company had the two piece sticks in the 1990s Gretzky used, it was the famous aluminum stick, and, you know, shined on the ice in early 2000 they came out with the synergy, which is a one piece stick, Kevlar and composites. And really was the whole change the game from that point on. Now, your every stick is in that composite factory. Parents are pissed, because, you know, when the stick breaks, you spent, you have 150 $205 in little Johnny, you know, broken already. But what we did to launch it was go to fish for the fish are so we did for the go through all the provinces, all the main hockey markets, and took the whole eastern team there, and were able to go on many of the morning shows, meet with the beat reporters, because it was so foreign. You're introducing this whole new thing. Think of it like this year with the when the Yankees had the bats, the new bats that came out and, you know, in baseball. So you have these aspects, where, if it's a difference, it becomes the that becomes the focus. So we went all throughout get coldest air time of the year, your bad flights, all those aspects, but you're able to get on, you know, a lot of the hyper local, which we're gonna be the buyers, so that all the Canadian retailers loved it, but they getting on the CBC, getting on Hockey night in Canada, to be able to talk about the sticks. And then we, the founder was from Atlanta, so be able to take him to Atlanta and get him on CNN and talk about it in a way that, you know, there's a kid from Atlanta that invented a hockey stick that changed the game. So being able to bring those things to life and then getting on, my favorite was the stick itself would be on the front cover of the sports page, and they would talk about it in a way that it was because it was doing so much. And you had the Pro and the con, the old school one, oh, we should have wood sticks, which haven't been used in you have 20 years. But also all the equipment had to change, because the shots were coming off faster the release points, and as the high key players are getting bigger on the ranks that didn't change, the angles were different, and the ways the stick you could do better shots, different aspects, so whole different element. And then subsequently, we launched their next composite products at the Vancouver Olympics. So same thing, but on international scale. So we hosted events all throughout for media to see it, try it. The name had been known for a while, obviously from the stick, but they were able to see other equipment that was using that composite and Kevlar technology.
William Harris 52:22
Is there a point where you know a novel product like that, the PR opportunities start to dwindle, and then you have to have something new. Like, how do brands start to recognize or, how do you let them know when it's like, hey, we need something different to go in and or is it like, hey, now let's switch into founder stories, or is there like? What does that cycle look like?
Matt Kovacs 52:43
Well, the funny thing is, the kiss of death of any PR agency. If you go, Hey, you haven't done anything new, we can't get you any stories. So we really try and ensure to your point, we try and ride that, that wave and come back with different strategies and different plans before you hit that point. The other thing that we ended up doing, and if we're using that as the story, we took media to the factory. That's always a good one. In the factory wasn't easy to get to. It was in Tijuana, Mexico over the border. It's like this composite alley where golf clubs are made, and you all the different composite products. But offering that up was a really big sort of that second bite of the apple, because everyone saw it. It's been endorsed and enhanced through the NHL, and then be able to have people experience it, see how it's made, see how the elements are. And then, you know, obviously the kicker at the end, we've put their name on the stick, and they get to leave and have their own stick with their name on it. So those are aspects. And then also, looking at it from to the point of stats, we were able to through the playoffs every year, be able to say, Okay, there's, you know, 52 of the players have Easton synergies. Here's their scoring numbers. Here's why Easton is running the playoffs. Because they were always, you know, leading that way. So looking at it from the advantages, and then when they released the next round of products, skates and protective equipment, like helmets, so you're able to utilize the trust you'd earned about the composite product to say, look, this is why these are better, safer. Eastern was part of a larger holding company that they had a helmet division, that you had all the safety around that, and obviously the bats understanding composites. So yeah, it was way to bring that on life. And then the other thing would be going in Back to the data, surveying the different associations, because there did push back of like, hey, you know, these are expensive sticks. We can't do this. But then when you do the math, the amount of wooden sticks kids were going through a season was equal to, you know, one of those sticks. And you were able to say, Okay, from the time and effort standpoint, this is helping your kids game. So yeah, it's a way to to have that and tell that story in a way that made it interesting.
William Harris 54:42
I love that. What about one more brand study? And then I wanna dig into some other things here, too. Kavita, the thing that I like about this is you were with them from startup until acquisition, and so you saw all of it. Was there an inflection point where you were like, Yeah, this thing's gonna take off, you know, I think
Matt Kovacs 54:59
pretty quick. Quickly, as you started to see it get adapted. And, you know, we always push back on them to really go into that space with the yoga community, you know, all the really honest people with the way, you know, in that area. And I think, you know, they were looking at it of, you know, is that just a trend? Is that a thing? But yoga is part of it. Now it's really where you look at it, of how that became that lifestyle, and that they were there as well, and the authenticity of their beverage, you know, again, the sparkling probiotic. They had all the right strains. They had all the right flavor profiles. You know, it had a whole story that you were supposed to swirl it and actually keep it cold at a certain level. And then throughout the campaign, where I think, to your point, the inflection point, there was the great kombucha scandal in the, I'll say the mid say, like 2012 2013 when? And I don't even know this story at all. I don't know it. Okay, so at different retailers, you know, when things are in the cold aisle, you get a beverage the beverage or the temperatures were dropping. So what was happening with the kombuchas is they were fermenting. So all these kids were basically getting drunk every day, hangovers, all these, you know, the teenage girls going to the store before they were drinking fermented kombucha. And it wasn't just like in one area. This was happening nationwide. And so there are a lot of the brands that had to be pulled for a while, because at first they thought it was the brand formulations, but it was they come to find out that it was at the retail level that they weren't keeping it cold enough. So that gave convenient the opportunity, because they were a different formulation, different aspect, and then we were able to jump on that and tell that story, and then at the same time, then they were able to get better distribution, better, you know, placements in a lot of these stores, etc. So it was an interesting time to be a part of that and really look at it. And it was, I think, the one, it was either a congressman or someone at a political level that it was his kid that kept they found out that she was getting drunk from kombucha every day. So that was the aspect that really changed. I think that the brand trajectory. But then you started to see more investment, more expansion, more retailers. It became less a trend and more of an actual thing. It was also, if you look in the mid 2000 10s, the odds there of probiotics as a whole, probiotics became a whole aspect. We did a big survey with the dieticians and doctors to find out, you know, which is more important, your multivitamin every day, or probiotic? And overwhelmingly, it was about probiotics. It was about gut health collection, you know, connection. It was a way to really ride that as well. So you had this probiotic storyline that's going, and it's still going now. I mean, now it's in pet world and all those things, but I think that's an element. That really was, the fact that they were the leader in a probiotic beverage, and now you see it with, you know, obviously sodas and all the other aspects. But that was a big part of
William Harris 57:52
Gut microbiome is taking off. I've actually used VIOME, which is a company that helps to analyze a little bit. I think it's very interesting, you know, to look at the science behind the bacteria, essentially, that are living inside your gut, and how that impacts a lot of aspects of your health. Um, you talked about politicians, though, how there's a politician. Is that ever a part of the play, like an intentional part of the play? We're like, hey, you know what? Let's work with these lobbyists, or something like that.
Matt Kovacs 58:17
So I'll say yes and no. There's times that it is important in our parent companies at public affairs firm, so they do a lot more of that work. But in the back to Easton, the exit speeds of bats was had to change in 1998 the College World Series game USC and Arizona state. The final game was 21 to 20. It was so many home runs and diggers and the balls are flying off. Now the bats, the exit speed is the associations limit the speeds, not the manufacturers. And so there was this whole campaign that Congress was trying to or one congressman was trying to change it, ban all bats that were non wood, and go back to wood bats. And so we created a whole campaign of, don't take my bat away. We had different Hmong groups, different aspects and lobbyists that obviously went to Capitol Hill and different, you know, state capitals to be able to do that. Got little league baseball behind it. Got all the other, you know, associations, because you a the sports would die off, because the wood bats would the the interest, the excitement would die off. And then also just, you couldn't keep up with the amount of bats you would need. So being able to tell that story at the end of the day, the associations change, the exit speeds, we're able to make it more where you're not having these crazy trampoline effect off the bat, but it was being able to have combating any of the congressional elements with lobby groups, and be able to tell that story and get because if the manufacturer just raised their hand and said, Hey, this isn't fair, then it would be like, you know, capitalism gone bad. But this was a way to really show and create that impact.
William Harris 59:41
I think it's wild sometimes the things that we think need to be legislated versus not. I remember a story along these lines, which was, I think it was in the UK, they tried to regulate the or legislate the number pi. They basically, yeah, we don't want it to be 3.141592653589 Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. We don't want it to be that. We're gonna call it 3.2 and it was like, Wait, how did we come up with this? Like mathematicians basically had to go and lobby against the government and say, you can't actually legislate a number. That's not
Matt Kovacs 1:00:12
a thing. Let's not do that's true. I've never heard that. I'm gonna look that up. That's
William Harris 1:00:15
funny. So what stage is too early for dedicated budget for PR? Or is there such a thing? Again, you started with Kavita from the very beginning. But like, when is it where brands are? Like, you know what? You maybe need to do a couple of other things before you really start working with
Matt Kovacs 1:00:29
I think when we meet with the brands, when we start, you know, with a prospect, or if someone comes to us and we try and you really go through that, you know, what is your goals? You know, this acquisition, you know. And again, in those early stages, they may not have those goals yet. They're just looking to get product made and get, you know, get into retail. I think we can tell there's, there's you sort of have that spider sense of, it might be too early when we try and educate them and really counsel them, of like, hey, let's talk. In a month, we'll put a plan together. We can tell you what we're going to do, but you might not be ready for this shit. Back to the point of, do you have product? Do you have distribution? Do you have, you know, will the website, you know, is the switch going to be turned on, and that really helps to garner it. On other sides, we they might say, no, no, we want to get hired now, because we want you. We want your counsel. We want to make sure we're doing this along the way. And there's just different ways of scale that we can work on it in that regard, to make sure they're having those aspects. Because you have the last thing we want to do is come on the clock and we're doing our stuff, and then, oh, there's another delay. We're not gonna launch till next month. Oh, wait, it's six weeks from now. Oh, wait, it's two months. Because we're on we're on the clock, and then we can't talk to media, and there's only so much of the background elements you can do, and only so much of the research to keep up with. You know, trying to maintain that, but we just try and be honest with it and say, Hey, let's take the time out. It's too early. Let's talk in a month. Let's do that, because otherwise it does become this thing. And then there's the pressure on both sides, because we're calling it. We have our weekly call or bi weekly. You have any updates? No, okay, well, here's our five questions. Here's we want to do. That's great, but we're not ready yet. So it is an interesting dynamic, but I think there's still in those in that dance, there's still interesting conversations, because as they're guiding and having things come to light, it's a way that we can also influence the way the launch can happen, the way the, you know, the brand can start. So, yeah, it's an interesting play. You know, when we start with the brands that are, you know, baby brands, if you will,
William Harris 1:02:19
one of the things that a lot of DTC brands are doing when they're going from 10 million to 100 million is they're maybe going from just pure DTC to starting to get into retail spaces. And there's ways that we support them on an advertising perspective. And one of the ways we support them is we like to set up a lot of times geo holdout tests where we say, great, what are the 2000 locations you're gonna be in? These 1500 or so, we're going to have some dedicated ads going towards those areas and not the other ones, so we can actually see what's the impact in the actual sell through there, within those retail locations. What are ways that PR can and should be used to help when people are starting to go from pure D to C to actually getting into retail spaces. So I
Matt Kovacs 1:02:57
think a good example is with Bushwick. So Bushwick is in certain Walmart stores, and they have for their spicy syrup line, then they have a pancake line. So what we did was, on the influencer side, have influencers go in and shop the store and be able to call it out, pull it out. Hey, I know this brand. Wait, they're in retail now you know all that story, and bring it to life, and then do carry it through and go home, and you'll make the pancakes and use the syrup. But it's a way to cross that divide, because, yes, they've been known as online influencers, etc, yes, in the trades, we'll tell the story, because that's a big win of when you need to see this cross into that world. But it's a way to bring the influencers into a way, that they're telling that story in an authentic way, and that they've been connected to the brand. In the past, they've used the brand and done stories around the honey, the sriracha, etc, and now we're in retail, so be able to bring that to life. I
William Harris 1:03:53
want to go into your mindset as a leader, because I think there's some interesting things that translate to any leader at any business. You've been recognized. Blaze specifically has been recognized as as the best places to work. What's the secret to creating that kind of a culture? I think it's interesting.
Matt Kovacs 1:04:11
You know, I look at it, it's, it's a big thing. I think, you know, my parents were teachers, so it's that sort of. My dad was a third grade teacher. So you have that mentality. And every year when they started school, you know, how do you get your class, your classroom on your side, if you will. So I think that's an element that I always look at when we have, you know, our team and really building that type of culture, I think also, you know, with a lot of the elements, especially now, when it's hybrid, you know, you don't have the same comradery, the same, you know, whatever it is, water cooler chatter, but trying to create those moments in a way that's authentic. It doesn't have to feel that it's forced, you know, forced family fun, as you know, we hear thrown around. I think there's elements of really, also respecting everyone's time, and not everyone wants to be, you know, at the center of attention, or be telling stories, or, you know, tell me about your your weekend. It's understanding that people. People that way. So it's the interpersonal aspects, and we treat our office we did the host, sort of hotel model, first come first serve. If you get here again, everyone gravitates to where they usually sit. But there's some days hey, I want to sit in the conference room, or hey, I want to sit, you know, next to her, because we're doing a project. So there's aspects of that where you're giving you're turning over a little bit of that sort of Office control. But I think that stuff really goes a long way. And then I think I'm always sensitive to it. Of you can't pick your clients, but you get to work on some really cool clients, projects, brands, and I think that lends to that culture as well. And again, the aspects of being able to travel, being able to be well compensated, all those aspects, I think, an important factor. And there's some people that like, Hey, I don't like to travel, I don't like to travel. I don't want to fly. I don't do stuff, okay? So, you know, those things, and if you have those conversations early enough, it's not the awkward, well, you know, the client's like, hey, you know, Dave, I can't wait for you to be at this event. Well, Dave can't travel because his, you know, they just had a baby or, you know, things that like that. So it's trying to understand those factors. And then I think the other thing is, you know, I think we look at, especially on the hybrid side. Now the work from home, there's still going to be some balance, you know, it's, yes, you're working from home, but that's not necessarily nine to five anymore. It might be, you know, six to noon, and then it might be, you know, two to 10 in being, being, understand. And we communicate that my thing, and I know my, my EVPs have said, Just tell me what's going on. Like, the more you communicate with me, you know, hey, I was gonna go and, you know, my whatever my friends are doing, a fun run. Can I go? You know, I'm gonna go from I'm gonna leave at four. Fine, the hours are there. Because I know, if you know, when you get home and from eight to 10, you're probably gonna catch up on stuff. And I think that that's something we look at of just trying to be more real and more honest in the reality of today's world. Because otherwise, if you're stuck to, hey, nine to five, I need you to 852. You better be on I think that's where you lose people.
William Harris 1:06:47
I completely agree with you. My philosophy is that I want to give the team as much autonomy as I can over their own life. I think that we want to have some control over our life, and we want to have some influence over that direction that's going to go that involves, I would say, our time, I think is a big part, kind of, like you said, where it's like, if you need to go do this, or you're picking a kid up, or whatever, it's like, yeah, done. You're going to go do a, like, you said, a run. You're like, Hey, there's this 5k that I want to be involved in. It takes place. No big deal. Like, we work around those things, and that's just a part of it. And then, you know, let's just say, like, some control over financial as well, right? And so that's like, we have unlimited, like, bonuses for people, where it's like, based on how much revenue they're managing, they have the opportunity to generate an unlimited amount. There's no cap to that. And I think the benefit to that is, it's like it gives you some control over what you're going to make. Can you bring on more clients? Can you grow those clients? Right? Like that ends up being incentivized for you to do the thing that the client wants as well. And so I love hearing you say that.
Matt Kovacs 1:07:53
And I'd say on the flip side, there are some of employees or associates that they want the control they need to have. You know that 100% Yeah, like that. And that's otherwise. It's not the inmates running the asylum, but yeah, you can. It's just pushing the right buttons and in many ways. And yeah, it's funny to see how, again, we all get managed.
William Harris 1:08:12
Yeah, I want to dig into the personal side of who is Matt Kovacs as well. I like getting to know the human you hinted at this a little bit, but you have, you know, you're a remote culture, but you have some experience in remote culture from your, I believe high school days, you got an early jump on this. What happened?
Matt Kovacs 1:08:33
So played baseball, you know, all throughout, and then I tore both knees up and back in the days in the mid 80s, it wasn't like it is now where they operate and you're back to normal. You know, the next day, I was that kid that you missed probably, like three, four months of school every year, from like 910, 11 grades. So it really was just school, homeschooled, in a way, and it was like the new kid every year, you still had your core group of friends you grew up with, and they would stop buying everything. But it wasn't the same experience. And that's something that, again, now to your point, it's invaluable, because you can be self starter and understand it, and, you know, know that there's, you know, other elements, but yeah, that was an interesting time of, you know, some teachers went to school with my parents. So again, back to the teacher mafia there. So they'd be like, read your book and then write a report, and that'll be your grade for this, you know, semester versus other stuff, and otherwise, you know, get trying to learn Spanish remotely. Was, was not that easy. So you had, you know, the teachers would come to your house, etc. But, yeah, it was an interesting time. And I think that's part of, again, probably a lot of my personality
William Harris 1:09:34
today, yeah. And for those listening who are like, What do you mean? You can't learn Spanish remotely? This is back before you and I back before you had, like, YouTube teaching you these things, or Duolingo, or any of these other things. Yeah, exactly. You're reading it in a book. You're like, I don't know if I pronounced that right. I think I rented out every book that our library had on Japanese. I wanted to learn Japanese when I was in like, third or fourth grade. And it's like, I have no clue if I'm pronouncing these right or wrong, right? You're just trying to read them phonetically. The. Best you can that's so you had parents who were teachers. My mom was a teacher. What's one of the like, best things that you had as a result of having parents who were teachers? I
Matt Kovacs 1:10:11
think what's interesting too, is, is the the way that, again, obviously, my schooling was different in those years, but the reverence that students had for like them, they'd seem in public, and it was like in you and I seen it my child, oh, wow, that that's my teacher. And they watch like what you're doing in that aspect. So it's that interactions of, you know, when they see the teachers in the real world, which was always funny. And I think the the elements of just understanding the value of schooling and teaching and in the way the, you know, probably the way I was raised, but also the way that they were raising these kids every year. You know, third grade is an important year, so my dad had that for 20 years. My mom taught high school English, so that was a whole different element in her world. But I think it's something to understand, and again, being able to understand what teachers go through today. It's, it's crazy. My parents have been retired for probably about 25 years now. So it's totally different. It was a different world, different schools, etc, completely different.
William Harris 1:11:06
Yeah, my mom tells me stories from early before she retired, and then you know what it was like towards the end of retiring. It's very, very different environment. Yeah, do you have any quotes that you live by?
Matt Kovacs 1:11:18
Yes, and I'll be cliche because I'm from Pittsburgh, but it's the standard. Is the standard Mike Tomlin famous quote, but I think it's something that it applies in many ways. I think, you know, it doesn't have to feel that it's this oppressive sort of quote that, you know, people do, but, but again, it's trying to set standards on every level, be it for, you know, again, the culture, for our clients, for ourselves, and I think it's an important factor that we look at, because it's ways that we can help not only grow the agency, but grow ourselves, grow your positioning, and be able to understand that you know the purpose. And also, I think clients can feel that you know. They feel that you're driven that way. I think that's an important element as well.
William Harris 1:11:55
I love that I do. I appreciate standards. I think that without standards, it very hard to have ambiguous goals, to actually accomplish something right, without there being like a standard that you're actually aiming for. You have two dogs. I've got three dogs. Having dogs is crazy. Tell me a little bit about your dogs, though.
Matt Kovacs 1:12:15
So I have a French bulldog named truffle, and she's nine,
William Harris 1:12:19
and then truffle, wait, how do you get a name for truffle for a dog? So my
Matt Kovacs 1:12:23
daughter named her. She's the chocolate truffles. So, yeah, oh, nice. I like that. I call it trough. So you have, you have to, you know, give it a little bit of testosterone. And then chuck is our English bulldog. And Chuck is, like the hit of every client knows about Chuck. Everyone loves Chuck because he's just a big dopey Bulldog, and he's just hilarious, just his expressions, his tongue, everything he does, it's everything you'd think of an English bulldog. So in the two of them together, because he's 55 pounds and she's like 20 pounds. And there's, it's, you know, like mutton, Jeff, they just run around together. But, yeah, that's a big part of, you know, our house. I
William Harris 1:13:03
love that they all have their own personality from the get go, right? Like, there is just who they are. We have, like, said, three dogs, and each one of them are completely different, yeah, the oldest one. So we've got, we've got okie dokie, Ollie, Ollie, oxen free, and Oopsie daisy, so all O's. But you know, Oakley is, she's the oldest. She's definitely the most, most mature, but she's reached that stage where she's like an old lady kind of thing. And then there's Ollie, who is the most needy you could possibly imagine if you go anywhere without him. He's like, can I just please ride her the car with you? And then there's oopsie, who really lives up to her name. And just like, What are you doing? Like, I is there? I think you only have half a brain. Like, I don't know if you're actually thinking through what you're doing here
Matt Kovacs 1:13:45
and how they just follow you throughout the day. Especially if you're home different rooms, they have to get up and go with you. You happen to walk in the kitchen. That's, it's over, because they think they're getting fed. So it's a fun just dynamic. And it's, it's every day. It's the same thing every day, but, but that's why we love
William Harris 1:14:02
them. I wanted to do something different. First time I'm doing this with you, it was a suggestion from Michael caminetti. I want to give him a shout out, because this is kind of a fun idea. But I want to do like, a this or that, where you're going to basically rank things, and you're going to say which one is better, and we'll continue to go from there. So we're gonna do tailgate foods, and you're gonna rank which tailgate foods are the best, and if I miss one that you're like, Dude, we got through all of this, and you didn't give me the best one. Let me know that too. Let's start with, let's start with chili versus burgers. Think
Matt Kovacs 1:14:33
you gotta go burgers tailgate. You're standing up the chili can be messy. Yeah?
William Harris 1:14:38
Okay, burgers versus hot dogs. I'll
Matt Kovacs 1:14:42
go burgers again. You gotta, okay, build up. You're gonna be there's, you know, obviously, maybe some drinking happening. The burgers. Go burgers
William Harris 1:14:48
versus brats. I'll go brats. Ooh, why? Why the sweat,
Matt Kovacs 1:14:54
the storytelling, you can, you know, bring it to life. It's a regional fair, yeah.
William Harris 1:14:58
Okay. Brats versus pulled pork sandwiches.
Matt Kovacs 1:15:02
Again, I'm gonna go brats. I'm not a big, messy guy. I feel like that. I would be the guy that is. I'm gonna be wearing this all day,
William Harris 1:15:09
sure. Brats versus buffalo chicken
Matt Kovacs 1:15:12
wings. I'll go brats once again. Yeah, it's sauce, hands, all that.
William Harris 1:15:16
This is probably true for this one. Then, too. Brats versus nachos
Matt Kovacs 1:15:20
the cialco nachos, nachos, I've perfected. I can understand nachos. And I think that can be, you know, every bite can be a fun adventure.
William Harris 1:15:29
This one's a stretch. I don't know how I ended up on the list, but I wanted to keep it because I thought it was interesting. Brought or no, wait, you said nachos, nachos versus deviled eggs? Oh, I'd go deviled eggs, right? Like, I don't know if that's a tailgate as much, but it was on there. And I'm like, I kind of like deviled eggs, though,
Matt Kovacs 1:15:45
yeah? Because you don't, you don't want deviled eggs, because they're not, they're like, a delicacy, yeah, all the time. You know, at a restaurant you see it, you're like, I'm gonna get that. Yeah, I think the deviled eggs would win out.
William Harris 1:15:55
You see the meme where somebody basically, they're like, Hey, do you want like, 12 hard boiled eggs. And it's like, no thanks. They're like, what if I, like, take the yolk out, mixing it up and put it back inside of the egg, or whatever. You're like, you son of a gun, I'm in kind of thing. Oh, exactly. Okay.
Deviled eggs versus mac and cheese. Deviled eggs. Deviled eggs versus potato skins. I'll go down with eggs still, yeah, deviled eggs versus chip and guac. I go, Chip and guac. Ooh, okay, chips and guac versus, like those barbecued meatballs. Barbecue meatballs? Yeah, there's something more sustenance about them, right? Protein. And you're like, Yes, I can have about 100 of these. It'll be good. Barbecued meatballs are the sweet chili meatballs still barbecue, okay, yeah, barbecued meatballs, or, like, the pizza that you've just ordered in from, like, you know, whatever. Yeah,
Matt Kovacs 1:16:49
pizza would be, pizza would be a good one, yeah. What toppings are you getting on your pizza? I think that one because, again, it's tailgate. You probably gotta go more just pepperoni or cheese. You can't get too adventurous, because you're gonna there's too big of a mob to cancel.
William Harris 1:17:03
That's fair pizza or soft pretzels with beer cheese.
Matt Kovacs 1:17:07
I'd go the soft pretzels.
William Harris 1:17:10
Okay, soft pretzels, or brownies, soft pretzels. Soft pretzels. Is there any that I missed?
Matt Kovacs 1:17:19
Well, I again, you could go on the Pittsburgh side. You gotta bring in some of the different ethnic foods. Ethnic foods so you can, okay, stuff cabbage. Okay, a stuffed cabbage would be one of they'll go over the meatballs, because that'd be fun to have, sure when I go back to town. You also you could do it for many brothers sandwich, which is, I don't even know what that is. Wait, what for many brothers is a famous sandwich place in Pittsburgh. Basically, it's, you get two pieces of bread they have, they'll do the meat, the cheese, coleslaw, and then the french fries on the sandwich, and then they smash it down. So it's all in one in one sandwich. So the pamani brothers would be a lot. Then that's good for tailgating. They sell them like in halves and all
William Harris 1:17:55
that. Yeah, I should have done more research on Pittsburgh. I missed out on this. So those would be some other ones to add in. Yeah.
Matt Kovacs 1:18:01
Okay, so what's top now, why? So we went the, I'd go the stuff. Cat, well, permanent brothers, if that was our Mani brothers, is number one, yeah, yeah. But I think those are, you know, from a tailgating at a Steeler game. You hit all the right ones. I mean, I've had pray all that stuff through the years, yeah.
William Harris 1:18:16
What's pathetic here is I grew up not far from Pittsburgh. I grew up on Canton, Ohio, I had not heard of per many brothers sandwich. So I'm a little bummed that now I gotta have
Matt Kovacs 1:18:25
one. Gotta have one that's in the airport now, which is great. Okay, they're a franchise. Someone obviously a venture capital firm bought them their franchise. They go as far west as Indianapolis, and then there's in Florida. They're all out because all the yinzers that you know, Carolinas, anywhere, that Pittsburghers have migrated, that's where they've shown up. All
William Harris 1:18:44
right, I'm gonna have to grab some. I'm gonna have to either get back to Pittsburgh here at some point in time, or I'm just gonna
Matt Kovacs 1:18:49
have to grab some if you could have it shipped to you. Oh, that sent for my birthday. Sent me a whole gold belly. It was a four pack of sandwiches.
William Harris 1:18:59
That actually sounds really interesting. Okay, that's a good place to end, because I'm hungry, Matt. I just want to say thank you for coming on, sharing your time, your wisdom with us. If there people want to work with you or follow you, what's the best way for them to do that? I think
Matt Kovacs 1:19:12
again, obviously Blazepr.com or your you go to my LinkedIn is always two good ways to connect. Cool again.
William Harris 1:19:19
Thank you for sharing your time today, and thank you everyone for listening. I hope you have a great I hope you have a great rest of your day. Bye.
Outro 1:19:26
Thanks for listening to the Up Arrow Podcast with William Harris. We'll see you again next time, and be sure to click Subscribe to get future episodes.