Product to Profit: What We Can Learn From Alex Hormozi’s #2 - Tim Calise

Tim Calise is the Managing Member of Acote Consulting, where he helps growth-minded business owners drive value. He is also the President of Coaching at Wealth Without Wall Street, an online community reeducating individuals and entrepreneurs about money and wealth.

As Alex Hormozi’s former “number two” at Gym Launch and the Co-creator of the AI-driven SaaS platform ALAN, Tim has a track record of driving rapid growth. With over 20 years of experience helping entrepreneurs achieve financial freedom and business acumen, he hosts the Leveling The Field podcast.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

[2:33] Tim Calise’s experience working with Alex Hormozi and the traits that define his success
[4:36] How Tim led explosive growth for an AI-driven SaaS platform
[11:48] What is the “Product Profit” framework, and how does it impact business growth?
[14:20] The significance of creating customer-focused micro products
[20:59] Insights on optimizing customer acquisition and retention through strategic offers
[23:54] Driving long-term brand affiliation through customer service success
[33:05] The “Power Down” concept and its relevance to business efficiency
[51:15] How Tim's ideology of reverse engineering life for family prioritization counters traditional business success models

In this episode…

What strategies propel businesses from mediocrity to industry domination? The key often lies in how the strategies are executed. Could a shift in approach be as transformative as the tactics themselves?

Having worked alongside business mastermind Alex Hormozi to build growth-minded enterprises, Tim Calise has developed calculated processes for growth and profitability. His proprietary “Product Profit” framework involves reassessing your product’s offerings to align with customer preferences and market demands, shifting your focus from immediate profit to lifetime value considerations. Additionally, Tim recommends making small, strategic decisions to foster innovation, adaptability, and efficiency. By evaluating and streamlining each operation, goal, and approach, you can drive long-term growth and sustainability.

In this episode of the Up Arrow Podcast, William Harris invites Tim Calise, the President of Coaching at Wealth Without Wall Street, to speak about building robust, service-based businesses. He explains the importance of financial freedom, his characteristics of success, and how to leverage offers to boost customer acquisition and retention.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Quotable Moments

"If we could not acquire another customer right now, what needs to be true about our product to succeed purely on referrals?"
"You would never say, 'Hey, I have a guy who looks like a lumberjack yet is probably smarter than 99% of the financial minds you've met.'"
"I'm a big fan of lateral thinking to bring what I learned from SaaS into e-commerce to absolutely dominate competitors."
"Micro products will be rewarded. Pull apart bundles so you cater to different avatars and optimize success."
"Success doesn't sit in a book or a course; it's between your ears. If you're willing to be wrong and pursue truth, you'll likely succeed."

Action Steps

1. Apply lateral thinking to explore strategies from different industries and incorporate them into your business.

This approach brings fresh perspectives that can lead to innovative solutions. Lateral thinking encourages creativity and helps identify unique strategies that competitors may overlook.

2. Develop a "Product Profit" framework for your business by first engaging customers with a smaller, tailored offer.

This creates the opportunity to build a stronger relationship and upsell in the future. This strategy allows for a better understanding of customer needs, resulting in higher customer satisfaction and lifetime value.

3. Focus on hitting singles by making small, consistent strides in your business rather than waiting for the big break.

This leads to sustainable growth and reduces the risk of burnout. Constant small achievements can accumulate over time, leading to a significant vision of success without immense pressure.

4. Prioritize and schedule the important aspects of your personal life, like family time, to maintain balance while pursuing business success.

Personal fulfillment and strong relationships contribute to greater overall well-being, which reflects positively on business performance.

5. Shift your focus from accumulating a large balance to generating passive income that exceeds your monthly expenses.

This approach redefines financial freedom in practical terms. By generating passive income, you can make life choices independent of immediate financial pressures, leading to a more empowered and fulfilling life.

Sponsor for this episode

This episode is brought to you by Elumynt. Elumynt is a performance-driven e-commerce marketing agency focused on finding the best opportunities for you to grow and scale your business.

Our paid search, social, and programmatic services have proven to increase traffic and ROAS, allowing you to make more money efficiently.

To learn more, visit www.elumynt.com.

Episode Transcript

Intro 0:03

Welcome to the Up Arrow Podcast with William Harris, featuring top business leaders sharing strategies and resources to get to the next level. Now, let's get started with the show.

William Harris 0:15

Hey, everyone, I'm William Harris. I'm the founder and CEO of Elumynt in the host of the Up Arrow Podcast where I feature the best minds in e-commerce to help you scale from 10 million to 100 million and beyond, as well as help you up arrow, your business and your personal life. Really excited about the guests that I have today. Tim Calise Tim was Alex Hormozi's number two at Gym Launch. And ALAN, he's the host of Leveling the Field podcast is a versatile entrepreneur, investor and consultant who helps service business owners uncover the profits hidden inside of their existing business, and has recently been named president of coaching at Wealth Without Wall Street, where he could take his 20 years of experience to help folks pursue financial freedom and business and life. Tim, welcome to the show.

Tim Calise 0:55

William, thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here and looking forward to the conversation. So thank you. Likewise,

William Harris 1:01

today, folks, I am going to stretch your brains a little bit. Tim's expertise is not e-commerce, which is a little bit of a detour from what I normally would do. But he's a killer when it comes to building and growing service based businesses. And he and I have chatted about how to use our lateral thinking to take what he's doing in the service industry and apply it to the e-commerce world. So you'll find that I do this a lot. I'm a big fan of lateral thinking. In fact, before I got into e-commerce, I came from the SaaS world and I was able to bring what I learned about LTV to CAC ratios to absolutely dominate a lot of other e-commerce competitors. Because of the lateral thinking, because at the time in e-commerce, a lot of people were focused more on immediate profit instead of LTV to CAC ratios. And so, lateral thinking being something I'm excited about. Before we get into the meat, though, I do want to announce our sponsor, this episode is brought to you by Elumynt Elumynt is an award winning advertising agency optimizing e-commerce campaigns around profit. In fact, we've helped 13 of our customers get acquired, with the largest one selling for nearly 800 million in one that I peeled recently. You can learn more on our website@elumynt.com which is spelled elumynt.com. That's it for that under the good stuff. Tim, I'm a big fan of Alex Hormozi. I've read his book 100 Million Dollar Offers, and he's skyrocketed over the last couple of years. You are his number two. So I gotta ask, what was your favorite part about working with Alex?

Tim Calise 2:33

So Alex is probably as most people know him, he is a walking talking pattern interrupt. That is the public version of him. You would never say or prior to the last two years, you wouldn't say, Hey, William, I have a guy who looks like a lumberjack is probably smarter than, you know, 99% of the financial minds you've ever spoken to, and is driven like no one you've ever met. It's it's just a combination that just didn't exist. And I am incredibly fortunate and honored to have that experience. In some of the early videos that he posted to YouTube, it's basically him sitting in a blank office, there's a whiteboard behind him, little American flag on the floor. That was the casita outside of his house. And I was very fortunate to be able to live nearby and really just soak up all of the knowledge that that he was spewing at that time. So probably my favorite times were when the cameras were off, we were hanging out. And it was just like two people who had we're both driven, both wanting to call it stretch their kind of mental and physical capabilities. And we definitely had a streak of like, we had a lineman around, we want to we've got some stuff to prove. And I think it was a lot of fun to be able to have kind of aligned interests in that way.

William Harris 4:02

Now that's cool. I last maybe harder than I should have been. You said the lumberjack. You know, the the brawny paper towels. Yeah, I also felt like he looked like the brawny paper towel lumberjack and I actually I mocked this up and I shared it on LinkedIn. He didn't comment and it was so sad but totally totally get where you're going with that. Um, were there any any crazy stories that happened about him? Where like, I don't know maybe you know, he orders his pizza he orders a pepperoni pizza only to pick all the pepperonis off because he doesn't like it was like there anything like that that you could remember you

Tim Calise 4:36

know we ate a lot of sushi. That was okay popular popular go to Yeah, I mean you he's been very public with kind of how he organizes his nutrition. And so just for those that are not familiar, Alex effectively, his like go to at night and he has hashtag Don't skip dessert. You is basically used to eat a pint of ice cream. And he would eat candy all the time. And people would say, how the heck do you do this? While kind of maintaining the figure that he has and the stature that he has. And he worked out, obviously very, very hard. But he was all muscle. I mean, it's the reality. So. So I think some of those intricacies were pretty fun. But going to his house, grilling, hanging out. were some times that I would, I would absolutely tear our show for a very long time. But as far as peculiarities, he had a cat named Billy, which I foreshadowing was short for billionaire. And so yeah, it's, he knew exactly where he was going from a very early age, even before you know all of this kind of transpired. And I knew I'm on the ascent, not at the I have $1,700 in my bank account. But when Jim launch was starting to move, and I'm very, very thankful for the time to be able to help bring part of that story to fruition.

William Harris 6:00

That's cool. Um, speaking of moving into, like Jim launch, and then even Alan, you co developed Alan, which for those who aren't aware, Alan, a l, a n is an AI driven SaaS platform. And it's receiving remarkable growth from zero to $20 million in six months, which is just sensational. But that's not the best story here. From what I understand you, you took Alan on, almost as an accident. Maybe you're just asking for punishment. What was the story of you ended up taking on Alan? Yeah,

Tim Calise 6:36

so probably both of those statements are true. So at the time, I was the VP of Business Development for Jim launch. And Jim launch, had, at the time, three pullet, child company's three divisions, there was the coaching business, which is what most people most people are familiar with. We had a supplement brand, a supplement business called prestige labs. And we had Alan and the thing that united all of them were was Alex started gym launched to help gym owners make more money. So the first was, gyms needed a better business model. And so he pioneered the six week high transformation challenge, which is effectively a high ticket front end offer. In a prior to that very competitive low ticket type space. I mean, the gym industry has been, you know, kind of, obviously Planet Fitness at $10 a month, you know, up to wherever you can charge, right. So that was where he started. And after gym owners kind of implemented the process or the business model that that was that was supported underneath the gym launch umbrella. One other way to do that was to sell supplements, as a part of the offering. Once those two things were effectively dialed in the and just for kind of context here, this is like 2018 2019, Facebook ads started, they weren't, you know, five cents apiece anymore, they were 50 cents to $1. You know, we saw kind of the the trend of acquisition was getting harder and harder. And in gyms at that time, we taught gym owners how to nurture their leads. So if you ran paid campaigns, you'd get an opt in, on average, one out of eight opt ins in a fitness facility would ever even walk through the door of the gym, I'm sure. Now you can imagine when you're paying a penny five cents 10 cents, the waist doesn't feel all that expensive. Move that to $1 apiece, $2.50. apiece, $5 $10, it becomes really painful. And despite telling everyone exactly what to do. And for anyone who's ever run a brick and mortar business before getting someone like the front desk person or a part timer to care as much about that nurture process as you is very, very difficult. And so I it really started with this idea of like, well, heck, we'll just do it for them. And so another gentleman on the team started to build what became Allen. Fast forward to the fall of 2019. We have a summit and executive team, a bunch of us are getting together quarterly planning, we've all kind of been in those situations before and our phone rings, and it says the guy who runs this project didn't get on the plane. What do you mean, he didn't he didn't get on the plane. It's like what do you do? You didn't get on the plane. He's supposed to be like presenting kind of like the status of where this thing is. Didn't get on the plane. The next message after that is, and he's not coming back. He's out. Wow. So there's four of us on the executive team, Alex, Laila, our CFO and myself. Alex and Leila are effectively running the business co CEOs. Our CFO is doing what she did phenomenally well, making sure that we all kind of had jobs and everything got paid for and all that. So by definition, it was like tech you're in. So I have never run a software business before. So we had 32 offshore developers, we had a team of about eight people onshore on our team that were doing, you know, customer success and development and things like that. And so I learned trial by fire. And it was like, We need this thing to come to market, we're already pre selling it, we kind of gave people an expectation. And effectively from September of 2019, through December of 2019, we built an entire software package software platform effectively from the ground up with data science with a data science team, etc, etc. So, you started off by saying, I think I'm a glutton for punishment, somebody once said, I am the equivalent of like a business firefighter. When everybody else is running out of the building I seem to run in, I don't know, which wire got crossed within me. But I love those types of situations. And we launched that following January. And in six months. Fortunately, or unfortunately, COVID actually played very well for us. We generated over $1.7 million a month and MRR so about a $20 million run rate.

William Harris 11:15

Wow, wow. That's incredible. I think the thing I like the firefighter illustration. But I think the thing that I appreciate here is we've established your credibility your chops in this. And so what I wanted to get into is a, I want to understand your, your framework here that you've put together, which is product profit. Because I think that that's something that you've you've carried with you through all of these different businesses and that now you're using to help other people with their businesses. What is the product profit framework? And how is this helpful? Yeah,

Tim Calise 11:48

so I think one of the things that I want to set kind of as context is, my background is in finance. I have started businesses purely out of the desire to help someone move from their current state to a better future ideal state. I am not a marketer, from a tactician perspective. And that's important because I approached these initiatives, product first, more so rooted in the idea that if we can put an exemplary product out into the market, it takes a lot of the pressure off of call the acquisition process and things like that. And you talked about Alex and one of the things, it was an edict effectively that we carried was, if we could not acquire another customer, right now, for the future for eternity. And the only way we can grow is by referral. What needs to be true about our product or service to make that a viable business? And you very quickly go like, Oh, if I only have one customer, I would be really hands on, I would drive all this value, I would do all these things. Well, then you should probably do those things. Right. And so I give that content simply context simply because the product or profit framework is built around the idea of product at its core, and then wrapping an economic model around that, that release relieves the pressure on on cash flow and investment to try to get your money back as soon as possible. You know, you were talking about CAC to LTV ratios, one of the things we do is, in the context of effectively earning more than it costs to acquire the customer is how do we build an ecosystem, a process that is optimized for getting our CAC back as quickly as possible while not losing sight of the the opportunity to grow into LTV, and to for those that have ever been in the SaaS space. There's a concept called land and expand. Yes, yep. Right. Anybody who's in that world is very familiar. The concept being take Salesforce or HubSpot, or any of these big platforms, you make one sale. And the more integrated the company is into that one sale, the more seats you can sell, the more secondary products you can sell. So it's a single sale with growth on the back end. And I've just taken a lot of those same principles. And the principles that got Jim launched grow from zero to $50 million a year in revenue to help the next round of entrepreneurs see things in that way to optimize again taking the pressure off a cash.

William Harris 14:40

Yeah, we would talk about negative revenue churn, right the idea of just like, okay, great, you might actually have some customer churn some other revenue churn, but if you can upsell those current customers enough that you've actually created negative revenue churn in totality, which is a brilliant place to be if you can get there and I've seen few do it. HubSpot. I remember that wrote a good article about when they had made that happen. Yeah. And yeah, that's a good spot to be. So what is what is your? What is your framework? Like? What does it look like?

Tim Calise 15:12

Yeah, so let me walk through, there's basically three basic components to it. What, where I see people go wrong, especially in high ticket and things like that they try to go from cold traffic to selling a core offer. So that looks like I'm gonna go out to try to convince someone to spend 2000 5000 10,000 $50,000 on my core offer. The problem with that, in most cases, is you have to shell out a lot of money on the front end, and hope that over time, you get that money back to use a gym analogy, because this is was really important for me, I, I own eight gyms at one point, when you have a bunch of say, a free trial, as an example, gyms offered free trials all the time. And it's 30 days. If I spend $50, to get a prospect in the door, today, I convert let's, let's say, I'm really good, I convert one out of two, I spent $100, then they have 30 days a free trial. And then hopefully they sign up. So let's just say I'm really good again, and I get 50% of those people to continue, I now have paid $200 to get a sale. And now let's say that my monthly rate is $50. To use easy math, I'm going to go another four months, before I recapture the money that I've spent. This is why service businesses in particular feel like they're always broke. Because by the time you get to the end of that call it five to six month period, now customers are starting to leave. And attrition is now taking over. And the bucket is now leaking effectively faster than you can acquire. And you just you just burn money. So what we do is we say okay, again, sticking with the fitness analogy, I can't get someone to lose 50 pounds in a day, or two days or a week, right? But can I in a week, give somebody success at a smaller goal at a lower price point to earn the right to transition them into our long term program. And so what that might look like, especially in e-commerce is the way I've seen this work as well. What is the starter product, or the starter service that we can wrap around that sale? That makes it easy for someone to say yes, so you create a customer, and then earn the right to create a client. So we break those up into two steps. There's effectively how we do it. And sometimes, and this is where the the the interesting part comes, we actually have to create a dedicated product to sell on the front end to liquidate that acquisition cost. Sure. And so that's the third piece of this whole one is understanding creating the customer. The second is what is the goal. And the third is what product do we need to create, usually out of the existing assets in the business to make that all happen.

William Harris 18:11

It's genius. You know, it reminds me of a couple of things that we did in the SaaS world as well. Even just that idea of the free trial that you're talking about, one of the things we would always say is you gotta get the customer to the while, as quickly as possible, ideally, that same login that they have. And that same thing is gonna be true for e-commerce. So I'll come to that. But the idea of getting them to the wall and SaaS for us was if they, if they log out of that first session, they literally go into the computer, they create their trial, and you let them leave from that trial without them going, Oh, I get this and I understand why this is such a big deal. The likelihood of them coming back was very, very, very small, they just created the trial that just aren't going to come back that was true for so many trials in the e-commerce world, then the same thing is true when somebody gets that first product from you, if they get that first product from you, and they don't immediately get it, they don't have the wow factor that you wanted them to have your likelihood of them coming back for that second, third, fourth purchase no matter how many times you advertise or email them or whatever that is, it dramatically goes down and so the more that you can do to get them to understand and really see and appreciate the full value of that product immediately is the most beneficial thing you

Tim Calise 19:25

can do. Yeah, spot on. And I have a framework that that I work through with a lot of folks and there's there's only six ways that we deliver product. Three of them are physical and three of them are digital, okay. So you have physical products and digital products. You have physical and digital services and you have physical and digital access. So you have six levers that you can pull. So the question is based on who your avatar is that you're talking to, and the promise you make, which one of those levers needs to be pulled? and in what order to maximize and to optimize? Exactly that moment of wow. And I think we sometimes under appreciate, we think, what can we provide? Like we start from our perspective, instead of saying, what is the customer actually need? And how can I bring that to bear as quickly and efficiently as possible. And that might be a JV with another provider, it might be an affiliate relationship, it might be something the customer actually doesn't care. However, we care, because I want to be the person who has earned the trust of the customer, even if I am using other providers to deliver upon the message.

William Harris 20:46

Sure, yeah, that's smart. You mentioned to me that another part of this framework, you talked about it being a singles game. What What do you mean by this being a singles game?

Tim Calise 20:59

Yeah. So I will say I made big mistakes early on in my professional career. And if I was to boil it down, the mistakes I made when launching new companies, new products was I built them first. And then sold them. And I invested a lot thinking, oh, like, I kind of know, whatever, you know, I know what the client wants to some extent. And this one's going to be kind of I'm trying to hit doubles, and triples, because I had to recoup my investment. I have now taken the complete opposite perspective. So now and just think of commonly held sayings like you want to get to 100 nose, you just have, it's about how many offers you can make. Now imagine what like like, at least this has been, I didn't have the mental fortitude to say I have invested my blood, sweat, tears, capital, money, time, attention, etc, into something, let me go get 100 nose, that's like saying I'm gonna get punched in the face 100 times and still still show up? Because I took it personally, I think I've seen this go wrong. So many times. It's hard to withstand that kind of pressure and impact. totally change the lens for a second, which is imagine if I reached out and said, Hey, William, I have this idea. I'm thinking about building this thing. I'm thinking about building a course for e-commerce providers to help them go from 10 million to 20 million while working half the time. If I built something like that, does that sound like something you'd be interested in? And you might say yes, you might say no, you might say yeah, but yes, but I'd love for it to have this, this other component. Now my search of 100 knows, is 100 pieces of feedback. And it's about the idea, which I have not invested in yet. So I don't take it personally, which allows me to now have velocity of offer, offer a velocity of trial. And so I now try to think about how many singles Can I hit, which is a volume game, and staying in the game rather than trying to hit doubles, triples, home runs, etc, etc. Hmm,

William Harris 23:14

I love that. Obviously talking baseball in case anybody's wondering what we're talking about with singles, doubles, and triples, yeah, most people probably get it. But you never know, there might be somebody who's like, I don't play baseball, I don't know that sport. I really appreciate that approach. I think that it's so easy. It kind of reminds me of the yes ladder and other things of incrementality that we do here as well, where it's just like, if you can get the yes letter, it's just like that one small, incremental thing here, you're almost like doing that to yourself, where you're giving yourself the ability to get like that those little small commitment to refining the product now so that when you go to offer, you've got something that is very well refined. And you've got the feedback that you needed to make that happen. I think that's just you.

Tim Calise 23:54

And you know, in SaaS is a great example. You know, a lot of people say I have to raise capital to be able to bring my idea to market or I need to I need to raise money to do this. Most businesses actually don't need that. Most, there are some that do. But most business like I built more kind of things that have turned into software, or SaaS or other things other than an Excel spreadsheet. It's like, just imagine formulas, like, I'm gonna duct tape, duct tape and chewing gum. But if I did something like this, and you could put a number in here, and there's a bunch of calculations and you get this thing out, if I was to smooth that and make the the UX UI better. But I validated the core idea. We actually built a piece of software that never saw the light of day Alex has talked about this actually. We spent almost $2 million developing really, and nobody still knows about it, because it died. It's on the shelf. And the reason why it died was two things. One is we believed that the market would eat it up and desire it much more than they actually I responded, number one, and number two, we way over engineered it. So when we went to tell people about it, it's like, well just tell me what it does. That's like, well, it does this, this, this, this, this and someone's like, well, if it just did this, I'm a buyer. If it just did this, I'm gonna buy, nobody wanted to buy the suite. And as anyone who's ever switched from a CRM, yeah, switching costs is actually the biggest cost. It wasn't a financial thing. People were just like, I can't even make a decision because they know this is a, a huge business risk that I'm taking. And so I didn't make saying yes, easy. Yeah.

William Harris 25:38

And the clarity. Yeah, yeah. Well, I like where you're going with the clarity of the thought to like the clarity of the offer. I forget where I was at that I ran into this very recently. And it was something where it's like, there's it does, to your point, five things. And it probably does five things very well. But it was enough that it caused confusion, where it's like, it's very easy. If it's like, Oh, does this one thing you like, okay, great done, I'm ready to sign up. Because I know exactly what it is, I know that it's pain that I have, let's go for it was five things like, I don't know, now I have to think about it more, it takes me a little bit more time to think about it and decide if I actually need this do I actually understand what you're selling or not. And it makes it harder. And

Tim Calise 26:19

the takeaway there could also be if you feel like you are susceptible to this, if you have a quote unquote, kind of complicated or complex, then break it apart, I have a 10 year old son, we loves Legos. If you can take I think we live in a world right now, where micro products are going to be rewarded. Micro products will be rewarded. So so start to pull some of these bundles apart, because you will optimize for the different avatars. And then once you earn the trust, then you can cross sell. And I mean, SaaS has been doing this for a long time by my CRM and bolt on the marketing widget, or, you know, whatever it might be the finance, widget, Salesforce, and others have done these things. So but you have to make the the first decision easy 100%.

William Harris 27:05

And I think it goes in waves. Like I feel like I see that all the time where it's like there's there's the aggressive, single function, SaaS businesses that come out. And then and then there's all of the, you know, aggregation that takes place, and now they're all doing everything. And then there's the next wave of okay, well, we're gonna go back to reinventing these single jobs to be done, right, if you're gonna go with the jobs to be done for the single job to be done thing again. And then there's the next round of aggregation. I think it's going to continue to always just go in those ways. But I do think that you're right, where it's like, I think we've gone through a wave of aggregation, and we're back into, especially with the advancement of AI right now we're back into a singular focus. You know, how can we disrupt this very specific core thing?

Tim Calise 27:45

Yeah, yeah, talk about parallel thinking, I came out of the finance industry, I ran a hedge fund for a number of years. And it's really interesting kind of attracts similarly, like the interest in smaller managers, versus really, really large financial institutions, ebbs and flows with the levels of perceived risk that are in the marketplace. So just what that actually means is smaller hedge fund managers and asset allocators and things like that, generally speaking, have better returns. And the reason for that is when you're smaller, you can be more agile and get into different situations. When you are bridgewater associates, Ray Dalio, and you have $150 billion, you have to move. Everybody owns Apple, everybody on school, like the all the big eyes start to coalesce around the same ideas? Well, you could say, well, don't investors want Max returns, like, not in periods of 2008, not in the periods of put, like, there are periods where people go, it's a flight to safety, I care more about compliance, you know, and stability than I do about chasing returns. So I think it really it just to use a similar analogy, I think sometimes it's like, I want the specialty tool for the thing that I want. And then you go, Well, now I have 27 specialty tools. Exactly. Now, just give me the platform where I can get most of those things. And then you're on that for a year or two, and then you go, Well, we're kind of like a five out of 10 across the board. I'm gonna go find this. So I just think it's the nature of the ebb and flow. And I think you're exactly right. Yeah, depending on on situation.

William Harris 29:22

Yeah, 100%, I want to come back to something else you you were talking about here, which was, you know, hitting singles. I'm still stuck on that I really liked this metaphor. I'm thinking about, you know, basically what you talked about as an MVP, right? A minimum viable product. So you're able to get out there and the minimum viable product is actually just asking a question about the business itself. Like that's the most minimum viable, right? But this idea of minimum viable product, I want to I want to kind of translate this thing into e-commerce Because oftentimes, there's this significant costs to creating a new product eecommerce just like there would be in SaaS in development, right and so minimum viable product I see here and I've helped a couple people do this I really liked this approach sometimes would be, let's say that you're coming out with a new flavor of something, you can have this as a landing page or like let people actually even vote on it. You're not sure which one to invest your r&d into. You can gamify this in a way where you can actually send them to a landing page. It's like, hey, which one do you want us to come out with. And I think this is a brilliant way to get that engagement from your core audience who likely is your buyers and help you to know which one they're more interested in. So you can have two really radical ideas. And this isn't a few flavors. This could be you know, color of pants or whatever this might be right. But give them the opportunity to be able to basically be a part of that development process for you. And I think that creates, it's kind of like the hitting singles, maybe in the e-commerce space.

Tim Calise 30:54

Yeah, yeah, I think you're you're spot on. And I mean, you might know this and forgetting if it's 100 million dollar leads, or 100 million dollar offers, but that's exactly what Alex did. Yeah, he split tested the name, he split, tested, the sub headline, etc. Cuz he went out to the audience and said, which ones are these resonate with you? And so when he came out, it was amazing. You know, everybody kind of gravitated towards the winner. So I think there's a lot of power in that. I just think we're, yeah. I don't want to make generalizations. But I know through my evolution as a person, in the beginning, it's almost an my upbringing, I always had this thing in my head, which was kind of the smartest person in the room wins. I mean, just think about early in your life, you're like the kid that the kids get A's arguably are smarter than the kids who get C's. Well, Gary Vee is on record saying I was a horrible student, and you know, the whole nine yards, right? But I think in business, the more inquisitive the person, the more potential success they have, because they don't want to they're not sticking to their answer. They are in pursuit of an answer the answer that is right for the market. And I think sometimes we're fighting our own egos. Like, why wouldn't I go and talk to someone? What if they think my idea is bad? What if my opinion is different? Like I, it just goes back to kind of the longer I live, and I think a lot of people have come to similar conclusions. It's like the success sits between your ears. And we can talk about these strategies. And it's like, if you're willing to be wrong, and if you really do put the pursuit of truth with a capital T, front and center, I think these types of strategies will certainly be ones that can serve you very well.

William Harris 32:39

Yeah, I love it. I love questions. Reminds me of a quote from Richard Fineman, the physicist, one of my favorite quotes is, I wonder why. I wonder why. I wonder, I wonder why. I wonder why. I wonder I might have butchered it. Because there's a whole lot of I wonder why I wonder why I wonder why. But the idea, there's like that curiosity leads to questions. And those questions lead to better answers. Yeah,

Tim Calise 33:02

exactly. Right. Spot on.

William Harris 33:05

I want to flip from some of the, let's say the LTV type discussions we were having in moving to acquiring customers, something you said was that how someone enters your world determines how long they stay and how long they pay. Talk about like this framework or this mentality that you have about acquisition?

Tim Calise 33:24

Yeah. So as I mentioned a few minutes ago, I believe I subscribe to the concept that we build purpose. purposely built micro products for a specific avatar. Said another way, I don't believe in the one size fits all solution. So what that means is, if you can match the value proposition to a specific person, and deliver on the promise, directly, you will win. I don't subscribe. So, for example, I have a mentor of mine, he's runs a publicly traded company, we were talking about kind of what type of experience he would want to have. And I'm like, if I sold him a course he would never buy. He's like, I don't I don't want to spend time is important to me. You know, I don't want to spend 10 hours learning how to improve my LinkedIn profile. Right? However, I will spend $25,000 for you to do it for me, right. So this is the DIY versus done for the all that kind of stuff. Yep. And I think we miss that sometimes. And I think we sometimes fall into these traps of like, I'm going to put one product out and everyone will coalesce around that one product. And sometimes it's marketing and advertising and wrapping and things like that. But this idea of the better the fit on the way in, I believe is the greater the opportunity for someone to stay with you long term because they feel like it's that hand in glove, right? And so fitness was a great example of this like how many gyms Say we have a bunch of equipment. While it may be how personal trainers, and maybe you have a low ticket thing or something like that, so we build specialty programs for, if you are, you know, an 18 year old guy, we have a powerlifting a, you know, a build program, if you're a 65 year old woman, we have a strength and stability, a lot of the same exercises, but the packaging matters. And how people resonate with it and things like that. Exactly. So yeah, I just, I'm a big believer in that first expectation that you set really does determine the longevity of that relationship. Like

William Harris 35:39

that. And there's a lot of ways that I can see this translating very well into e-commerce, which is different versions of products for different, you know, versions of, of your ideal customer profile, as well. And, you know, the, let's just say like, the really kitsch version is just like, you know, you've got the white version for the girls, and then you decide you're gonna launch the black version for the guys. And I've seen that done before. And it's like, that's a, that's a dumb example. But that sometimes that can be good. But where I really like where you're going with this is, I would even say, the you talked about, like, if you can get them in at the right price for the right value, something along those lines, what I heard in my mind is I see this happen a lot in e-commerce, offering discounts for first time purchases, not totally against it, I don't love it. And I'll tell you, one of my biggest reasons why is when we look at this from an LTV perspective, they tend to only want to be buying a lot of times at a discount, then moving forward, you may have acquired the wrong types of customers forever. And so they're always they're never going to see the value in anything that you're selling ever again. Whereas on the flip side, if you can sell them on that offer, you might have less total purchases, but you're more profitable on those purchases, and you've got the right type of customer who's likely going to see the value and they're going to stick around. Whereas if they came in because of the discount, they tend to stick around a little bit less, they're gonna go with the next person that does offer the discount that they want moving forward.

Tim Calise 37:07

And so yeah, you're you're exactly right. You're exactly right. Yeah. So in our gentle back in the account, the group on daily deal kind of wave, you when you attract deal seekers, you're exactly right, they are motivated by the deal, right. And so, you know, I think you do set that expectation that, you know, until things are on sale, you severely limit your ability to, to engage and, and keep that person long term,

William Harris 37:35

the only real time that I see a good play for that in my personal feeling of this, and there's so many nuances to this. So I'm not gonna say this is tried and true across the board, but is when you are completely just getting started. And you're using this as a way to get some initial traction. And I think that there's sometimes some value to that when you have zero customers, zero marketing, budget, whatever, and you're like, hey, I need to get something in the door. And I could see that being a good play, but for as short a period of time as possible until you can actually just really start selling it for the value that it is. Yeah.

Tim Calise 38:07

And on that point, one thing I and you're absolutely right, there's there's a lot of nuance to this. But the question I would ask is, Does the discount and the acquisition need to be mutually exclusive? Meaning Oh, yeah, can you still go to the same person and say, Hey, wait, I'm just getting started. But based on everything I know about you, you might be the perfect person for this thing. I'll give you the test drive. On two conditions, one, tell me if you love it or hate it. And if you happen to love it, I'd love for you to just shoot me a quick testimonial. Just let somebody else know what your experience was like it would mean the world to me. Yeah. You know what I mean? So I'm not because discount, obviously, as we kind of walked through would be some kind of rec room on value, when really what you want is how can I take this experience and then daisy chain that into a future? And I think that's, I think we can think a little bit differently a little more strategically and in how we deploy some of those things. But you're, you're spot on. And

William Harris 39:10

I've seen that done very well on things like app sumo or Product Hunt, were great. You're just you're getting it on there, you're getting a mass, you're ideally getting a maybe a little bit more involved. user who is basically like you said like it's a it's a beta user, they're past the alpha, you're in the beta stage, you're getting the beta user, they're paying for a little bit for it, you're getting that feedback, they're gonna use it. test things out thoroughly, and I'm with you on that. Yeah. Um, something you talked about on your podcast that I really appreciated as well. So leveling the field. And I want you to go into it more cuz I really appreciate this which was putting the power down. Explain this to me, like I'm five here. What is power down?

Tim Calise 39:51

So I'm going to the disclaimer is I am a massive Formula One race fan. So I'm gonna go with some Car analogies, we went from baseball to cars. Imagine for anyone who's ever driven a car, put your car in neutral, and put your foot on the gas. And tell me what kind of progress you make. Probably somewhere close to none. Yeah, however, you're burning fuel. And a lot of things are happening, a lot of activity is happening. But you are making no progress. And I think the more I see folks continuing to do more of what they've done, thinking that progress expands, either literally, or quadratically, either either one for one or one to many. If it's not getting to where you want to go, chances are, you're in some form of neutral. And I think let's look at some of these very, you know, I'm firing on all cylinders, you know, I've got my foot on the gas, all of these kind of connotations that we have, is actually about effort. When really, it's actually about how much of that effort that power actually makes it to the wheels. Again, I'm a huge car fan, a there's a car built by Bugatti, that was like a million dollar car, they put two engines basically bolted together, make 1600 horsepower, or 1200 horsepower at the wheels. What most people don't know, is that engine makes 3500 horsepower. She go where the heck did the rest of it go. And without going to tackling its heat effectively is where the rest of the energy goes. But you're talking about to make progress, you're losing two thirds of, you know, of the potential. And just so often, I think we just think in terms of more, when really, we should be thinking efficiency. And the difference between the two is the transmission, are you in the wrong gear. And so often, if we stop and think about, I'm like redlining, My engine is spinning really, really fast. I'm in first gear, instead of saying I need to press down harder on the accelerator, maybe you need to change gears. And it's just a it's a good reminder, I think for for anyone who feels burnt out feels like they're burning the candle at both ends. To that there might be an alternative approach, which will actually deliver more, more impacts.

William Harris 42:31

So hearing you talk about this, I was just down in Florida, on spring break with my family. And, you know, on some of the beaches down there, they have the signs up there that talk about, you know, rip tides and things like that, and what you should do and kind of, you know, explains things. And you don't know if you've ever seen, you know, anybody drowning, hopefully not in real life, but you know, in a movie or something like that. And it's like, they're flailing their arms, they're just going crazy. And they're doing a lot. They are very much busy. But it's not an effective busyness, right, because they're still drowning. Whereas if you see what it talks about, it's like with the RIP tides, and I maybe didn't read it closely as I should have. But it's basically along the lines was like, kind of like, let the Rip Tide kind of pull you where it needs to. So you're not fighting it and you're wasting all that energy, and then begin to swim parallel to the shore, instead of trying to swim back to the shore. And then get out of that tide that that Riptide or whatever that current and then you can get back. I have to call out the little thumbs up there because it did it for you too. It's been doing that a couple of times that it's so funny. Love it. But But getting back to this year. So you know, I think to your point where it's like is the is the movement that you're making? Is it actually effective movement forward and doing the right things. And sometimes you have to stop what you're doing for a little bit. Reassess, and focus. And I think EOS calls these I think like focus days, right? Where it's like, you need to get out of the business for a little bit set up some time where you're just gonna say I want to look at this up down. What am I working on? That's working, what am I working on, that's not working? What should be delegated to somebody else, because it's still important needs to get done. It's just maybe not you that needs to be doing it, things like that.

Tim Calise 44:13

I think that last point that you just made, is the one I would especially for anyone who's kind of has an existing business and wants to maximize the per unit of time that they spend, you know, output per unit of time. It's that last piece, which is most of the time that I have found where things start to level off or even you regress as far as progresses. When you are outside of your zone of genius and your core competency or your core competency. Great book if you have not read it Dan Martell, famous SaaS, SaaS Academy, etc. Wrote by back your time and it is a step by step of how to address that core problem. And if you are outside I'd have the the Venn diagram of what feeds you, what you're good at, and what generates profits or revenue for your business. Every minute you spend outside of that you're spinning the engine, but no power to the wheels. And so I would encourage you to think in those terms. Yeah,

William Harris 45:18

I love that. And yeah, great book and love a lot of Dan Martell stuff. I've been following him for years as well ever since I was a SaaS too. So that's a great call out. I want to dig into the who is Tim KALISE side of the podcast now as well. Hearing the way that you think about business and the way that you think about things, it seems like you have always had this kind of mindset, you knew you were going to be this guy. And so from what I understand, you carried a briefcase around this

Tim Calise 45:50

is like my dating history in like in two seconds, which is pretty much you're exactly right. Which which started later in life, because of what you're about to say what you're you're spot on.

William Harris 46:00

Yeah, you came to briefcase with you in what, like middle school or whatever. So like this, this was you knew where you were going, you were like, I'm going to put on my white Oxford buttoned down shirt, and I'm going to carry my briefcase like I'm on, I'm on my path.

Tim Calise 46:14

Yes, again, made me wildly popular beyond by my any expectation I ever had. But yeah, my dad was in financial services, he was the guy who put the suit on, you know, took the train to work. And I think in the beginning, it was pure emulation. It was just, it's what I saw. But I got a little bit later, you know, kind of into high school. And I knew I was wired a little bit differently. My perspective at that time was, as most sons who want to kind of be like their dad, my vision of what that looked like, was more of like I was signing up to be a gladiator. And the paradigm that I heard or observed, was effectively, he who can withstand the most pain wins. And I have always been wired, I have much more of a sense of a softer side, if you call it that, which I now take great pride in which for a long time, I was kind of like, you gotta man up, and all of those things, I just identified with people in a different way. And when you are looking at problems to be solved, struggles that people have, I think that combined empathy, with this brain that works of like being a problem solver and breaking things down to component parts, and first order thinking and all of those types of things, which in middle school, you have no idea what that actually means. But in hindsight, I got to look at it, and put some words around it. But it gave me great joy to be a creator. From the standpoint of being a being a bridge builder, how do I take someone from their current state to a future state that they desire? And if I can have a hand in that, I realized very quickly that that fed me fed my energy in many, many ways.

William Harris 48:17

I love that. I think kind of what you just talked about is that idea where it's like you could have a zone of genius. But then there's usually got to be something else that separates you as well, right? And so for you is like you have this zone of genius of being a problem solver, a lot of problem solvers. But you're the zone of genius, who's the problem solver who also has the side of empathy. So that allows you to be a very different type of problem solver than just everybody else was the same problem solver.

Tim Calise 48:43

Yeah, yeah, it's spot on. And it's, it's interesting. So just kind of high story arc. You know, I went from finance kid in middle school carrying a briefcase, to I started two companies while I was in college. So kind of entrepreneurial, that I went to finance that I went to fitness and technology that I went to consulting and coaching. And most people would look at and go. So you've got a very, you know, story arc here. But the through line is the interesting part for me, which is that each one of those steps, it was I uncovered in hindsight, looking back, the thing that it ties back to those those items, it was the empath meets the problem solver with authenticity. I raised $350 million from mom and pop investors whose sole reason for trusting me I'm 22 asking them to give me a million dollars was a belief that they had safety. I should not have been able to do what I did. And that's not a boast. It's a I just didn't know any different. So my Empath meets practitioner served me very well during that time, we then shut that fund down December 31 of 2007. And said, this is going to get ugly and we don't want to be a participant go to safety. 98% of our investors said that we were wrong, and we had lost our touch 99% of our investors, I see most of them I still keep in touch with, because they came back and said, You are right. So it's, again, the through line is fitness. Same thing I like how can I take someone in an authentic way, we built fitness facilities that were not around, sign up and never come, it was all around proper launch and activation and retention. And then coaching coaching at its core is how do you be a mentor and a guide for someone who desires something new and improved for for their life. And so I take great pride in being able to, you know, almost like not to kind of stay that course. And stay as close to that, that through line as I as I possibly can through these different chapters in my life.

William Harris 50:58

I love it. And that actually leads well into another quote that you live by that you told me and hopefully I don't butcher but transformations don't happen in isolation. Yes. Tell me about this quote. And why is that one that you just love.

Tim Calise 51:15

I love it. Because it's probably a theme you've heard earlier in my life, when things got hard, I went inward, it's time to buckle down time, this is the grit part. Tough, you know, let's talk through whatever it might be. And the reality is, every transition point in my life has come either because of or in concert with somebody seeing something in me or me pursuing a different opinion or point of view that has resonated and allowed me to move from kind of one avatar, you know, kind of one version of myself to another. And the only way that you can do that is by having, it's like the quote, you can't read the label from inside the bottle. Yeah, and those two for me go hand in hand, it's like, oh, somebody else see something that I don't see. And being around other people, you change your environment, you change your future. It's like, oh, I need to do more of that. So the more situations I have put myself in live events, change lives, being around communities get in the better room, a lot of these quotes kind of all coalesce around this idea of we all go through, you have transformation is inevitable. You know, everybody has chapters in their life. But they don't happen sitting in front of a computer or buckling down. They typically happens in concert with somebody else.

William Harris 52:54

I really like that. I know that you had mentioned in our pre show before too, that you're big, big fan of Heaven mentors. I'm as well I've got an article I wrote on entrepreneur years ago called Find a mentor or die trying because I think it's that important kind of thing. I've been blessed to have many great mentors over the years as well. And I can fully agree with what you're saying there. It's like a lot of the most pivotal things in my own transformation. I can say, oh, yeah, I can actually point to something that one of my mentors told me, I go, Oh, got it. That makes sense. You see something that I didn't see. Yeah,

Tim Calise 53:30

yeah, I mean it. What do you like, love them or hate them? Grant Cardone, and his TEDx concept has fundamentally just a one question. You don't have to talk to him or anything like that. Go, okay. If I wanted to make a million dollars next year, or $100,000, and maybe I should shoot for 10 million, like, that alone has caused people to stop thinking as small and gone bigger. It's a very silly, you know, probably basic example. But a mentor, Alex talks about and I greatly appreciated the idea. He talks about so often in his life, especially early on, and through his maturation. All it has been is just changing the value vehicle that he's in. When he started it was I'm going to launch a gym and I will help the people in the community in which I serve. Then he had six gyms and he helped build a team and was more regional. And then he went to gym one started actually with him and others flying out and actually launching gyms. That's where the name came from. So the value vehicle went more to like intellectual property with some implementation. And then everybody hated getting on planes and living away from their families and all the rest. So then it was like, well, we'll just strip out the IP and create an info business effectively. And then it was a coaching business. You can just see the levels of leverage, improving over time. And I think somebody else just needs to look at us and go, you're playing tiddlywinks, you should be playing chess and you just don't know sometimes what game you're playing until somebody calls you out, right? And how do you know whether it be the you know, 10x is easier than 2x, or whatever phrase you want to use. I just think by and large, we have an opportunity to do bigger and better things. And typically, those things don't happen in a vacuum.

William Harris 55:21

I really like talking about, let's say, a continuation of what we're talking about, but specifically how you're up arrowing your own life, in by up arrow, just for those who are listening. It's a mathematical thing. Knuth up arrow, it's for used for making massive, massively large numbers like Graham's number way beyond exponentiation. And so, you know, we're acquiring and business, but how do we up arrow, our personal lives, and one of the things you talk to me about as being a husband, father of three, you've reverse engineered your life around your kids, which is sometimes maybe often at odds with business success? What do you mean, what are some ways that you've done this and why?

Tim Calise 56:07

So we've all kind of, we're all familiar with the idea that kind of, if you give, let's say, you have a task to do. You give yourself 30 days to do it. This was something we did a gym launch, which was like, Okay, we have something to do. I'll get it to you by Monday, like, it's Friday at two o'clock, can you get it to me by three o'clock, and we just compress time. And it's because when you give, obviously space, things will filter the volume of that you give it? I would use a similar analogy, which is the reverse engineering for me was, what are the big rocks that I want to cover first, and then work backwards. And I think for myself, quarterly, I go through kind of what are my priorities, it was a wonderful person, her name's Tara, and just did a great presentation on Wednesday night that I was a part of. And it's basically about reverse engineering, your calendar and things like that. But it's around your priorities. And the question that came up, which was super interesting was, I can do this, like, I can reverse engineer. But what if my calendar doesn't look doesn't reflect my priorities. I'm making a calendar of who I want to be, not who I am. And I think that paradox was exactly why I've taken this perspective, which is like, I need to establish who I want to be, and remove all of the other kind of ways that that can go wrong. And the way for me to do that was to basically reverse engineer my life. So I that doesn't mean I don't go through seasons, I am not a work life balance person, it's like, in this moment, this is how it's gonna go in this moment. So what I strive to achieve as much as possible is just present and present being present in whatever I do. And instead, I just kind of did a half in half out for a very long period of time. And it did get me to where I want to go.

William Harris 58:03

I love that. You call them rocks? Are you an EOS fan?

Tim Calise 58:08

I am not by by discipline. But you know, I think one of my I have my kids watching it as to you know, there's, I think there's a famous YouTube video as a professor or whatever it said, you know, here's the bottle, and you put a bunch of stuff. And it's like, is it filled? And then you pass around holding? Yes, yeah. It's the exact same concept. But I think, yeah, you know, I mean, there's, there's science behind why this is, but it's kind of like, you think with a different part of your brain in planning today, the execution tomorrow, which is like, if you let your brain tomorrow morning at 5am, ask if you want to get up and go work out your answer 99% of the time for most people will be no, yeah, that's because it's just a different decision making part of your brain. So I try to do any planning with objectivity instead of in the moment. And so just process wise, that's the reverse engineering process for me has always been the way that I've approached things, start with the end, if I'm gonna work backwards, it's

William Harris 59:09

like going to the grocery store hungry. The best exactly the right time to go there. Make your list before you get there. You know, I think the thing that I like about what you're talking about that I actually tried to do that as well and it's because of that exact analogy of you putting the rocks in there and then the sand and the pebbles and the dirt in the water and it's like well, if you do it in the wrong order, then you know it doesn't fit but if you put the rocks in first it does and I tried to do that as well with my own calendar too. And it's like okay, date night with life, right? It's like the rock has to be rock because of like me being able to have a successful marriage with her, you know, beyond this business beyond when the kids are raised. Like that's an important thing. Your point I'm not always perfect at it either. But like it's something that she and I tried to be intentional about with things like that. And establishing those those I don't know reverse engineering your calendar. I like that putting the calendar in that you want of who you want to be Um, you also told me along the lines of let's just say up arrowing your life, you're talking about how we miss, understand financial freedom. And I thought this was good to get into, like, we have the wrong definition sometimes of financial freedom. Talk to me a little bit more about this.

Tim Calise 1:00:19

Yeah. So I think for someone who grew up, you know, looking at, I made a statement when I was like 18, said, I want to be retired when I'm 30. Which finds like, it sounds good. But in that kind of line of thinking, it's like, I will, I think many of us have fallen into this, I will feel secure with some number in the bank. If only I had blank dollars in a bank account, then I can retire and be free and all those types of things. That is what I term is kind of like a balance sheet item, right? To number on a page. But in reality, financial freedom, as I defined it today, is how do I engineer a system of my life to produce passive income greater than my monthly expenses. So go with me for a second. So if you said this month, it cost me $10,000 to run my life. If you had passive income, not active income, passive income of $15,000, you could theoretically do whatever you want with your time. And we just talked about kind of a calendar, my ideal outcome is that I can get to 200% of my monthly expenses in passive income, which will allow me to have an open calendar. It's not going to happen in the next kind of quarters. But my pursuit is in the next five years to be able to hit that number. If you believe that to be true, two important things happen. One is the idea of retirement being like, I'm just gonna go put my feet in the sand. Sometime 40 years from now, I just don't believe in that concept. It's really hard to do like deferred sacrifice and all that. But if you could say, I want to turn my active income today, into passive income tomorrow, so that I can live the life that I want. I'm all game, I'm game for that. So that's, that's the first. And the second is depending on which stats you you listen to. But you know, having been in the marketplace for now, 20 years, I've seen the the manifestation of this, something north of 90% of businesses under $10 million a year or a little bit more, don't sell for any real number, or they sell for liquidation value. Which means if you start a business and say, I'm gonna sacrifice for the next X number of years, and it will all be worth it, when I hit this pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. For 90% plus of us, that will not happen. So if you want to have control over your future, there has to be an alternative, which interestingly, makes you more cashflow focused in the short term, which allows you to turn your active income into passive income. So you take the pressure off of the business, and you actually have a more efficient business, which arguably has a greater chance of selling down the road. Wow, so does that. So it has fundamentally changed the lens in which I look at wealth building wealth is not a number. It is a ratio. And I think the more we can think about that, the better off we all will be.

William Harris 1:03:40

I haven't heard it said like that before, but I really liked that. Tim, I think we're at time, it has been absolutely incredible talking to you. If people wanted to work with you. Follow you what is the best way for them to get in touch stay in touch? Yeah,

Tim Calise 1:03:58

so website is Tim kalise.com timcalise.com and Instagram, LinkedIn, and Facebook. I'm on all three and I monitor all my own DMS. So if anything resonated with you, DM me arrow, A R R O W on any of those channels. And I will know that you listen to the show. And I've got some special gifts. But we'd love to do anything I can for your audience, if anything resonated and quite frankly, we'd love to know what resonated with you and happy to help in any way I can.

William Harris 1:04:31

That's awesome. I cannot appreciate you enough. This has been absolutely fantastic talking to you. Thank you for coming. Oh, thank

Tim Calise 1:04:38

you so much for having me on the show. It's been wonderful.

William Harris 1:04:42

Thank you everyone for listening. Y'all have a great rest.

Outro 1:04:46

Thanks for listening to the Up Arrow Podcast with William Harris. We'll see you again next time and be sure to click Subscribe to get future episodes.

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