You’re Tracking the Wrong Metrics: Leading Indicators of eCommerce Growth With Jesse Allouf

Jesse Allouf is the Chief Marketing Officer at Tire Agent, an online tire and wheel retailer. He previously served as the Senior Vice President of Marketing, leading the brand through a growth curve by focusing on first-click signals and fintech data. With over 15 years of experience in marketing and e-commerce, Jesse has held leadership roles at companies like Knot Standard, YOOX NET-A-PORTER GROUP, and Alpargatas S.A.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:

[4:02] How Jesse Allouf built an e-commerce data foundation using AWS (Amazon Web Services)
[10:42] Shifting focus from lagging indicators like conversion to leading indicators of customer intention
[15:56] Jesse shares how he aligned his team and leadership to test and transition optimization strategies
[18:40] How to uncover less obvious customer behaviors that reveal strong purchase intent
[23:45] Why brands should capture PII (personal identifiable information) and wish list activity
[27:49] How shifting attribution models reshaped Tire Agent’s media buying strategy
[35:21] The importance of consistent messaging and brand storytelling for customer acquisition
[46:43] Core fundamentals of scaling an e-commerce business
[53:20] Tips for communicating with executives about increasing profitability
[1:00:04] Jesse’s experience as a football recruit at Stony Brook University

In this episode…

Which customer signals drive growth? Many e-commerce companies focus on lagging growth indicators, like conversions or revenue, when they should optimize for intentions rather than outcomes. How can businesses shift their focus to leading indicators that reveal customer intent and drive sustainable growth?

Data-driven growth expert Jesse Allouf encourages brands to shift their focus to first-click signals and on-site behaviors to unlock results. He recommends building a solid data foundation, identifying less obvious behavioral patterns — like wishlist activity or account creation — and working cross-functionally with data science and development teams. By gradually testing changes and aligning leadership around data-backed insights, e-commerce companies can optimize marketing spend and increase customer lifetime value.

Join William Harris in this episode of the Up Arrow Podcast as he welcomes Jesse Allouf, Chief Marketing Officer at Tire Agent, to discuss optimizing e-commerce growth through data insights. Jesse explains the importance of consistent messaging, how to align marketing efforts with finance and leadership, and the fundamentals of e-commerce growth.

Resources mentioned in this episode

Quotable Moments

“It really is about understanding the entire journey on your site and trying to find those patterns.”
“We were trusting Google but then not trusting Meta, and we were bringing all this bias.”
“For us, we’ve been really consistent, and so we go to market with a certain message.”
“My CEO made it very clear from day one that he was like ‘profitability above all.’”
“It’s not like you build it and you walk away; you build it and iterate.”

Action Steps

Build a robust data foundation: Centralizing marketing and e-commerce data allows for deeper analysis and more actionable insights. Without this groundwork, businesses risk making decisions based on incomplete or misleading metrics.
Focus on leading indicators of intent: Shifting attention from lagging outcomes like conversions to early intent signals improves targeting and spend efficiency. This approach helps brands engage customers before competitors do, strengthening long-term growth.
Collaborate closely with leadership teams: Aligning marketing strategies with CEO and CFO priorities ensures that growth efforts balance profitability and scale. Transparent conversations foster trust and support for innovative, data-driven changes.
Optimize media buying by campaign, not just channel: Evaluating individual campaign performance allows for smarter budget allocation and higher return on ad spend. This precision avoids wasting money on underperforming ads or misaligned audiences.
Maintain consistent brand messaging: Keeping a steady value proposition across campaigns builds customer trust and reinforces brand identity. Frequent shifts in messaging can dilute its impact and confuse potential buyers, reducing long-term loyalty.

Sponsor for this episode

This episode is brought to you by Elumynt. Elumynt is a performance-driven e-commerce marketing agency focused on finding the best opportunities for you to grow and scale your business.

Our paid search, social, and programmatic services have proven to increase traffic and ROAS, allowing you to make more money efficiently.

To learn more, visit www.elumynt.com.

Episode Transcript

Intro 0:00

William Welcome to the Up Arrow Podcast with William Harris, featuring top business leaders, sharing strategies and resources to get to the next level. Now let's get started with the show. Hey

William Harris 0:15

everyone. I'm William Harris. I'm the founder and CEO of Elumynt and the host of the Up Arrow Podcast, where I feature the best minds in e-commerce to help you scale from 10 million to 100 million and beyond as you up arrow your business and your personal life, today's guest is one of the sharpest strategic operators in e-commerce, someone who's not just reading the signals, but redefining how we think about them. Jesse Allouf is the Chief Marketing Officer at Tire Agent, where he's helped lead the brand through a massive growth curve by throwing out the old rulebook and building a new one based on first click signals, fintech data and a crystal clear view of what actually drives scale. Jesse isn't chasing trends. He's designing systems rooted in data driven by intention and focused on what really matters. From pioneering new ways to optimize media buying around pre conversion behaviors to rethinking how we define success. Jesse has become the kind of cmo who doesn't just track metrics. He teaches the business how to interpret them. Today, we're diving deep into the leading indicators of ecommerce success, the shift from lagging data to real time insight in how Tire Agent went from chasing transactions to building a foundation that supports sustainable, intelligent growth, whether you're a founder, growth leader or just someone tired of shallow dashboards and vanity metrics, this is the episode you've been waiting for. Jesse, welcome to the up arrow podcast.

Jesse Allouf 1:29

Thanks for having me. Will I could not have written that better myself. Thank you so much. I'm super excited to be here.

William Harris 1:37

No, I'm very excited to have you. I want to give a shout out to Jessica Curdi. She's the one who made the introduction, another brilliant e-commerce marketer and previous guest on the show, and she had nothing but great things to say about you. Then when we did our pre show, I was like, Yep, I see why. She said I gotta have you on the show.

Jesse Allouf 1:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We, we talked a little bit about the show, and I was when we talked about it, I was like, Okay, I really need to get on to up arrow. And, you know, also tell my story.

William Harris 2:02

I love it. Well, I do want to announce response, and then we'll dig right into the good stuff here. This episode is brought to you by Elumynt. Elumynt is an award winning advertising agency optimizing e-commerce campaigns around profit. In fact, we've helped 13 of our customers get acquired, with the largest one selling for nearly 800,000,001 that ipoed. You can learn more on our website@Elumynt.com which is spelled Elumynt.com, Okay, on to the good stuff. Jesse, what was the moment when you looked at your growth dashboard and said, huh, this is broken. Let's fix it. Yeah,

Jesse Allouf 2:35

I love this question. I think about this question all the time. It really started about a year ago, and we were looking into the customer, and we were looking at like you talked about signal, and our customer is your average customer, right? We don't advertise to the gear heads. And we're what we do is we're offering, you know, a firm we have, like you mentioned, Fin Teck, and so we use certain signals to tell us what type of customers we're sending to the site. And what I realized is that the type of customers that we historically were sending to our site were starting to diverge, and I realized that the signals that we previously were using were sending us in the wrong direction. And so I realized that I had to talk to my team, talk to my marketing team, talk to my data science team. I come up with a new solution.

William Harris 3:48

So you've told me before that you can't build a house without a foundation. Let's talk about what that foundation looks like in like the modern e-commerce setting. Then, yeah,

Jesse Allouf 4:02

the modern e-commerce setting. I mean, it's all about data. And you know, if you are just out there spending money on meta, spending money on Google, spending money on all these channels, but you don't really have that foundation of data to support you, it really can set you off in a wrong direction, and big time, right and at Titan, at Tire Agent, you know, when I got here, we had a good foundation. We had the elements, you know, we so we, our platform is built on AWS, Amazon Web Services. And Amazon Web Services offer offers a data warehouse called red shift, and there's a thing called s3 which is basically their data lake. But the point is, is that the tools were there to basically take all of the data. That we're generating from our marketing platforms, from our from our e-commerce platform, and basically funnel that all into our warehouse and then do something with it. Now, at the time, we weren't really doing anything with it. It was just kind of, we're just there

William Harris 5:19

that's more common than you think that's going to do that a lot, yeah,

Jesse Allouf 5:22

you know, you know. And the the thing for me is, I came into Thai region. And then, to your point, will every place that I had come from had elements of this, but I think had never really fine tuned it in a way that I felt really maximized the potential. And so when I came to Tire Agent, I kind of came with an ethos and and a kind of philosophy of what data meant for an organization, and I didn't have the full plan, but I kind of had the philosophy of how it should be harnessed, and, and, and so when I got there, I was like, Okay, well, I know that we need to take a step forward, and I know that we have these elements in place. Well, who in the organization do I have that can help me achieve this goal? And so we had a data science team available on retainer. I had my development team that was available to me. And at the time, when I got here, over four years ago, we were way smaller. It was literally just me and an agency, and the agency, you know, there, it's harder for the agency to really play that role, because they're, they're so removed from your organization, the agency usually is like, kind of looking at, you know, Google Analytics, maybe like a looker studio, super lightweight stuff. And I was like, well, we need to go deeper. And so I pulled in the data science team, I pulled in my dev team, and said, Okay, what do we have available? How can we get how can we get our data into this warehouse? How can we organize it and structure it in a way that surfaces a lot more insight than we have today, and that was really the start of the journey and and by the way, everyone it's an iterative process, right? It's not like you build it and you walk away, you build it, and then you see what you have, and then hopefully you're you build out your team, or hopefully you have other people that you can go to to talk to, and see what they think, see what they say, and then you kind of iterate over time. There's

William Harris 7:47

a couple of good call outs that you said there that I want to hit on. One is, you're right. Most agencies don't go that deep. We actually work with a lot of VC backed and PE backed companies where we are doing that for them, we are getting into that and saying, you have all of this data, and you're using like, 1% of the data actually understand how to maximize the value of your customers, just we're building these things out for them, probably similar to what you're doing. And so I'd say that there are some out there that are able to go that deep, but I agree with you. In general, the agency has intentionally, maybe removed themselves from that piece of the pie to maybe just decrease the complexity of it, because it is complex, right? So aside from that, what are some of the other obstacles that you started to run into as you working towards building this out to actually get it to the point where you're like, now we have something that's functional I can use,

Jesse Allouf 8:35

yeah, I mean, so it goes back to what we talked about earlier, which was finding the right signal. So initially, when we built it out, it was, I was building it out for a certain outcome, which was the kind of lagging indicator right? And that worked for a certain amount of time, but as the marketing matures a little, it gets more complex. Your your us, the diversifying within channel, across channels, and you just have more more data that you're pumping into the warehouse, more data to analyze, and you have more more inputs, More decisions to make, more data to analyze. 100% it's not garbage in, garbage out. But I think that that there's kind of more room for error. It's complex. It's complex. It's complex.

William Harris 9:53

I had Christian Limon on the podcast. Actually, I think just last week is when it went live for us, when this goes live, that might. A couple weeks ago, but he was the one who ran growth for wish comm. They were the number one spender on all of meta before they even decided to branch out to Google just meta. And for that very reason, it was a lot easy to interpret signal on one single channel. So he just, we're just gonna go after that. Soon as you implement two channels, 345, it gets very complex. And like you said, there's a lot of room for error in things like that or misinterpretations or missed signals. You hinted at focusing on building this out initially on a lagging indicator, before you kind of shifted it. What was the lagging indicator that you started building off? And then what did you just say, wait a minute, that was good. We're going to make this better. Where did you take that to?

Jesse Allouf 10:42

Yeah, so the lagging indicator is, what a lot of people optimize for, is conversion, sure and and, you know, and that's what, that's where I think, you know, our conversation is going to evolve, evolve into this podcast a little bit, right, which is the lagging and leading indicators. And I think that, you know, and I think this conversation is super relevant for a lot of market marketers, a lot of e-commerce leaders, a lot of founders, which is, you know, find your leading indicator everyone, because the lagging indicator will only kind of tell you the outcome of your decisions, and won't really tell you the the kind of your success of your decisions. And so what, what we, what I started to realize, is that we were optimizing for the kind of wrong. We were optimizing for the outcome, not for not

William Harris 11:39

optimizing for the thing that actually was going to drive the outcome that you wanted. Yeah, yeah,

Jesse Allouf 11:45

exactly, exactly, and so and so and and that goes back to the customer, right? And so and so. What we realized is there are certain signals that our customers are are are telling us through their behaviors and their actions on our site, and those behaviors are happening in between Add to Cart and getting to the point of payment. And so when we realized that those that time frame and that journey between Add to Cart and point of payment, that there are certain actions and certain behaviors that have way better signal in terms of intention. That's really what we're talking about, right? Is intention and so and so. When, when we realize that the intention signals much higher. It was a huge unlock for us and so and so we said, You know what? Let's optimize towards intention. And so instead of optimizing for last click, towards conversion, we optimize. We start optimizing for first click intention, and it really was a fundamental shift in terms of how we looked in the business, how we looked at our marketing channels. That's

William Harris 13:10

a big it's a very big shift, especially at the size that you guys are at. There's got to be some hesitation around people saying, How can we make this change happen without ruining what we're currently doing.

Jesse Allouf 13:25

So yes and no, when you when you have that insight, and you model out the difference in outcome by making that change, sure the decision does become a little bit easier, because, you know, you're data driven, and so you saying, Okay, right? So, okay, so you know we we're doing it one way, and this is the outcome. And if we change how we're optimizing lagging to leading. This is the outcome, and we're going to make the change, and we're going to, we're going to see, you know, we're going to give ourselves 714, days and track the performance. And that's basically what we did. And we were transparent across the organization, you know, transparent with our CEO, with our CFO, and we let her, we let everybody know, hey, we have this insight. We're going to make this change, we're going to track it, and we're going to let everybody know that this is what we're doing. And so it wasn't like we hit it, and then if it didn't work, oopsies, you know, it was, we're making this change. Everyone's aware. And the good thing is that we made the change, and there was a positive direction for the business. And so, you know, it was just a validation of the insight I love, that

William Harris 14:58

you got everybody. On board to do this, because I will say that that is a thing that we have run into challenges. You know, companies that are $50 million and they've got this home built system that they have for attribution, and it's based on last click, and we're coming up against this, and we need to get them off of that. And so one of the ways that we have gotten around that, and I'd be curious to see what you think about this, like whether you even would have done that, because it's disruptive. We did basically a massive geo holdout test within the ads platform. We were in more or less half of the traffic still continued. Do the old way of system, and we split the other half, the other half going towards the new way. Very complicated. It is disruptive, but it was the only way that we could for this company, get to a point where we could prove to the CFO that this was better profitability for the business. And so it worked in this case. But I can say that. I don't, I don't recommend that. I'd rather do what you did. Would you guys have even gone to that if it would have come to that?

Jesse Allouf 15:56

I'm so skeptical. You know, it's like, when you talk like, when you talk to, like, incrementality testing platforms, and you get to like, you know, synthetic holdouts, and, you know, this type of holdouts. And I was at a dinner with someone, and they were talking about how they always have these, like, four quadrant tests that are always running, and there's always the like, one core of the country is, like, is always being held out. And I was like, man, so a quarter of the country is not seeing a certain, you know, platform like, that's a lot of revenue that you're potentially leaving on the table. It's very disruptive. So I think, I think there's a certain balance that has to be made, right? There's a, there's a scale here, right? You know, you know to you know, to me, expose everything. I mean, you know, maybe make a change. Make a change in how you optimize. Make a change in how you optimize. You want to go from last click to first click. But like for, you know, keep, keep all your channels running across all your platforms. I mean, you know, there, there has to be some risk mitigation, but, but I do, I do. I do get very wary of like, especially from a performance perspective, of like, you know, holding out a whole you know section of like geography, or a plot or, you know, portions of a platform, super risky today.

William Harris 17:24

Yeah, one of my favorite diagnostic tools is literally just taking action. What would happen if we push this button? I don't know what would happen. Maybe this. Let's just push the button and just see what happens. Yeah, it's very diagnostic. Yeah, I like that. You talked about intention, though, and I want to come back to that, because I think that that's a really big key of this. There are times when we say, Okay, Let's optimize for leading metrics. And sometimes people just, let's say, naively, would go towards, well, maybe that's Add to Cart and that's a good one, or they'll go to traffic right, or something else. And you're just like, that's just so elusive. That's not even the right word that I want, but it's so but it's so far removed from really showing true intent even add to cart as one. And this is something that you and I had talked about before. One of the issues that I've talked about with people optimizing for add to cart is I say, Well, what is your cart abandonment rate? Right? 75% so you're optimizing now, you're telling the platform to optimize towards people that have a 75% chance of leap like this is not a good optimization strategy. There's kind of something better than just add to cart. How did you work and find out what those numbers are for you? You don't have to say your exact ones, but how could somebody look at figuring out what are their better ways for them to look at Yeah,

Jesse Allouf 18:40

so we have a really good event architecture that we've implemented. And so it really is about understanding the entire journey on your site and trying to find those patterns, those obvious things that, once you find them, are super obvious. You know it's like Michael Lewis. You know when he says, When, when, when, when he goes into writing a book and and says, When, oh, it's like Moneyball. And you know when he says, like with the Oakland A's, he said, The to find the UN obvious players that everyone else was overlooking. It's basic to me. It's similar to that, what is, what is the thing that everyone else is overlooking, potentially about your business, that you know, that, that no one else knows, or or what is a behavior that's that's unique, right? Or like, what is it about your business that is somewhat unique. And then what is a behavior that someone could be exhibiting on your site that is obvious to someone who's not in your business, but that to you, you know that, okay, it's not add to cart, but it's something else that is a signal that says, Okay, if someone is doing that thing, if I optimize to. That that is probably going to mean that that person is probably, like, moving down the funnel, you know. And I know that that's a little bit, you know, kind of abstract, but that kind of answers your question, you know, because there's only so prescriptive I could be there. But I do think that. But I do think that, like every company, should strive to ensure that that that that that journey is mapped out. And my, one of my bi guys, who's like a kind of who's a BI data scientist, he calls it our data mesh. And I love that. And it's such a it really, I think it really provides a picture of what we have, because that's really what it is. And it means that it's, it's taking Ga Ga for our CDP data, our own e-commerce Data and some other data points, and literally finding how they all like, finding ways to connect them so that we have the complete journey, and then using that to surface those insights, and then leveraging that for, you know, for signal, I

William Harris 21:19

like mesh. That's a really good word for it. It's probably better than what I use. I talk about a lot of times four dimensional data, and this is where I'm gonna get really nerdy. And this is for Sean room, who keeps bugging me about going real nerdy on something. So here we go. Quaternions are a way that you can do four dimensional math. And so I was actually working on this with a team from MIT, a little bit on basically, how do we visualize these metrics that we're trying to look at from all these different sources in a way where I want to see it as a picture, right? I want to see this basically as a three dimensional object moving through the fourth dimension of time. I want to see how it morphs and molds. Because if all of a sudden it becomes more concave than I say, oh, then I can visually see what's happening. If it comes all of a sudden, you know, morphed in this way that it's like I can start to visualize how all of those things map together, because we like to bring all of those different pieces together. And the way that I talk about this is like an x ray broke a lot of bones growing up because I did a lot of dumb things, like pogo sticking and jumping off of the the loading dock of a semi loading dock, you know, doing a back flip with my pogo stick. So broke my wrist, and I remember going to the doctor, and they do two different views. They do an AP view and a lateral view of your wrist, right? So they got to see both both views. And if they don't do that, they don't see the full extent of the break. There could be something that's hidden from their view. And I think that's the same thing. With looking a lot of flat data, you can miss a lot of things, whereas if you see it in three dimensions, you can start to see patterns that wouldn't otherwise be there. And to your point, I think that's where some of these things come into play. We can hypothesize, though, about some of these other these other metrics that would show higher intent from the SaaS background. I come from a SaaS background, so I really appreciated the way SaaS did this, because, to your point, I think SaaS usually does a better job of tracking a lot more data of like each different user. And there were things that we would see where it was like, if somebody added their logo to their account when they were setting up, they were X amount more likely to do this. If somebody added three employees, they were much more likely than somebody who only added one right, or like these different things we could track. It's like, how do we get them then to do that thing, to make sure that that happens when onboarding, or whatever that was, that meant that they were higher in 10, that they were more likely. What are some other things that you can think of that maybe might be less obvious to people, but just giving us a hint of something that we can look at.

Jesse Allouf 23:45

Yeah, I mean, there's, there's obvious stuff. Obviously, if you have, if you have an account, log in, obviously creating, creating accounts. Just huge, if you do SMS and email, right? People who sign up for SMS and email are super huge. People who leave, people leave reviews, right? People who leave, well, I guess that's, that's, that's post, that's post purchase. But, I mean, I think, yeah, I think people who, who are providing you, you know, PII is a super high, super high, intense signal, you know, Wish List stuff.

William Harris 24:24

That's a really that's a really good point. And what's interesting is, to your point, then, if you can optimize for those signals a little bit more with higher intent, the likelihood of you getting what you want is better. The other thing that's nice about that is, if you're optimizing towards conversion, there might be only so many conversions. If you can triple the amount of data points that you have that are high intent, that likely lead to that now, the algorithms within the ad platforms also potentially have a higher chance of finding people because they have more data telling them that they're doing a good job or not doing a good job with their targeting.

Jesse Allouf 24:55

Yeah, and I mean, we, we, you know, we. We, we leverage our data in that way. You know, we, we have a really good remarketing funnel that because, to your point, there is a lot of signal that we're that we're getting on site, but obviously not everyone's converting right away. Our site's pretty good. Let's call it like from a mouse trap perspective, in terms of like getting like PII. So we're also building, like, a really, really good funnel, like post visit. So to your point, you know, we're pushing that downstream to Google to meta, but we're also pushing that to email SMS, and we're really good at segmenting on the email and SMS side and making sure that we're leveraging that data to personalize to a degree. I think that like for us, for our business, like over personalization is almost like a negative so, like, we actually try and, like, find a balance, to just message within like, kind of, like a, like, a band of, like, what you've been interested in and what you signal to us, and that works for us pretty well.

William Harris 26:29

Over personalization, there's a point where that does feel creepy, and you start to lose that human connection, right where it's like, Hey, I noticed you haven't washed your jeans in three days. Would you like a new pair? Like, wait a minute, that's a little too personalized,

Jesse Allouf 26:41

yeah, well, and I think that's, I think that's, I think that's the state of marketing that we're in right now, where it used to be like one to one, and now I feel like it's more kind of like one to like 50 or something like that. I feel like, like, you know, where people, people don't want the personal. It's like they, they they want. It's not one to one, but they, they want you acknowledge that you're aware of their interests. But they don't want you to your point, to be like you looked at this exact thing all the time. They just want you to kind of, you know, service their interest. I think for us, that works for us really well. I

William Harris 27:24

think that is even more human when you think about it to a point. Like, if somebody knows too much about you're like, Are you a stalker? Like, you shouldn't know this much about me, even to humans, not businesses. We feel that way. You hinted at this a little bit. You started talking about some of the ways you're doing this from personalization. But like, what are other ways that having this data has changed, maybe, like, the way that you're approaching media buying or different things to more benefit this?

Jesse Allouf 27:49

Yeah, I mean, so going back to, you know, lagging and leading, right? So we started to diversify into Google Shopping and and this is what you and I had talked about in a previous conversation, and this is before I had that insight, and I huddled with my team, like quarterback and and I was like, Alright, we got to change something. We were, we were still, we were using an old attribution model, but it was a little janky, and it was kind of partial gut, partial data driven. I had the data there, but I hadn't fully 100% committed. You know, I was still kind of in transition mode, you know. And because of that, we were, we were using our data, but we were still relying on what Google told us, or partially what meta told us, you know, we were still, we were still not fully committed to our data. And I think because of that, is why we were, we were incurring that kind of like customer might call it migration or diversion. And so what was happening is we were kind of investing in the wrong customer, and we were migrating spend away from meta, and we were diverting it towards Google Shopping because, you know, Google's like, hey, all this money that you're dumping in because of their DDA attribution. It's showing right? All these impressions, all these clicks, super cheap, all these transactions, and it's looking really great, and meta kind of looking so this is the thing is that like we were trusting Google, but then not trusting meta, sure, right? And so and so and so, we're bringing all this bias into the into into into the usage of these. Platforms, and that's just not really great, you know, it's like we've got our data and we're using these platforms, and we're introducing this bias and and so trusting one platform and not trusting another, and then migrating money away and putting it to another, and then the result of that was moving it to a different customer than what wasn't really our core customer. And so, you know, and so the outcome of that is investing in Google and into more Google Shopping, which for us, because of our business model. Is it really a scalable growth? We can, we could scale spend, right? I can, I can dump how much money into Google Shopping. Google, take it all, gladly. Google, take it all. They will gladly take all that money for me, and I will go into my weekly meetings for them. And they will tell me how amazing it's doing. And they will tell me, thank you so much. You know what? Here's all this opportunity to dump even more money into Google shop and so and so and so. Once we once we had that insight, and we said, Okay, we need to put a better structure in place. We need to put more rigor in terms of what's the criteria that we're going to measure all of our channels, and not just channels. Go a little deeper. Look at everything by campaign, which was actually a really awesome insight as well. So we said channel, but yes, by campaign, and let's, let's, let's give them an equal measure against each other. And so once we did that, what we realized was that that that behavior between Add to Cart and and payment that our customers are exhibiting, and we can go into that in one second when we looked at it from a first click perspective, meta, actually far exceeded, um, far exceeded Google Shopping from, you know, from from an efficiency perspective, pure customer perspective, which also leads to actually pure conversion from our attribution, not not what Google said, So, which also ties back to your question earlier, about that's a big change, you do? You know that's a big change? You know? You know you weren't, you weren't afraid of making that change? Well, no, because, because we can see the differences and we can model it out. And so it wasn't like we flipped the switch on day one. It was actually a gradual, incremental shift from starting in, say, late February of 2024 and it really was a gradual, incremental change, let's say through May of 2024 so it's not like we just flipped that switch and that was it. It was here's the insight we see, where we need to flip the money, and we're going to gradually move that money around and make sure that we're not disrupting the system. And like, we're not going to give ourselves like a stroke or a heart attack, right? Like we're gonna gradually, gradually move this money over and and watch the efficiency metrics and make sure that as we're moving money out from here and moving it over here, that we're maintaining, you know, the efficiency and the metrics that that the business needs in order to grow and succeed. And so that was the, you know, so the approach,

William Harris 33:47

this is a dumb example, but I can't think of a better metaphor for it right now. So this, I'm just gonna run with it. It's kind of like if somebody was saying, like, Hey, I every time I like this match, this wood lights on fire right night, so I keep throwing more of these matches on these different piles of fire. And it's like, that won't work, though, if you didn't have the pile of wood to begin with. And it's like Facebook was providing you with this pile of wood ready to burn. And so you're like, great, we're lighting these matches, but eventually it's like, well, you only have the one pile of wood, so you're lighting 15 matches, but it's not making any more fires, because there's no more you need to have Facebook create these other piles, so that way you can also light those on fire as well.

Jesse Allouf 34:24

Yeah, yeah. And, and what, what, what was so interesting too, is when we, when we from that process, what it also helped us do was, like, trim the fat. So they were also ad creative, other campaigns weren't really working well, so it actually helped us trim what we what we were investing our money in. So that was also like a really positive by byproduct. So so we trimmed what we were spending our money and and we got more efficient, and that helped us. Just grow so that was actually like, like, a buy. Probably weren't really expecting, no,

William Harris 35:04

that's wonderful. You mentioned even ad creative a little bit, I'm curious. And you had also talked about like you were buying some of the wrong customers. Did you notice then, like, was there any ad creative that was also playing a role into potentially acquiring the wrong signals, no

Jesse Allouf 35:21

because one thing that we're very consistent on is ad creative. We tweak and we optimize, but the one thing that I'm very consistent on is our ad creative. We have a certain type of value prop and a message that that works. It works for us. Consistently works for us. I'll say it again. It always works for us. It's one of those things where no but like, but, but I feel, but I think it's really important though, because I think that, I think that a lot of companies, I could be wrong here, but I feel like a lot of companies feel pressure to change messaging a lot, sure, to change it up. And I think sometimes that could kind of mess with your, if not your brand equity. It could. It could maybe mess with expectations of the customers that do see your brand and what their expectations are of you. And for us, we've been really consistent. And so we go to market with a certain message, and we come through on the promise. And so and we and we always deliver, always deliver, but, but I think that consistency actually really works for us, and and and so to your to your question, for us, it was moving away from the mediums that tell that story was actually the original sin, yeah, because when you invest in a channel that just pushes product, and this is again, right? We're, we're telling the Tire Agent story, when, when we were moving money into a into a meeting that didn't tell the story, didn't talk about the value prop, it actually hurt us, because then people were just seeing product. They weren't actually they weren't. We weren't telling a story. And I think through that is why we were delivering the wrong customer. And so by rerouting the ad spend to a medium where we can tell the story and provide more context of who we are, kind of brought back, you know, the customer that we were looking for. So it was, I mean, we weren't trying to, like, run a test, but if you think about it as, like, almost like a, like, a year and a half journey, or two year journey, like, that's kind of what it was. It's almost like, kind of validating around, you know, like, if you if your brand, you know, needs to tell a story, you know, find the mediums that allow you to tell the story, but that also drives performance. So

William Harris 38:24

I had Preston Rutherford on the show, who was the CMO over at Chubbies, and one of the things that he talks about there is that brand creative should be performative. A lot of times we think about brand creative, and a lot of times brand creative isn't performative. When you look at the way that other people run it right? It's not but good brand creative is performative, because to your point when a customer now aligns with that story better, your ca goes down, your LTV goes up. This is just what happens, because now they're more ready and prime to buy, and they're also going to want to continue to buy more often from you. And so I would imagine this consistency that you guys have had with brand message, and I like that you called out, like how that can be helpful to your brand over a longer period of time. It might not be the way that you find the quickest hack towards getting that next customer, but that consistency has paid off. Have you noticed an increase in LTV, in any of the cohorts now from this?

Jesse Allouf 39:19

Yeah, I mean every. I mean every, every cohort, LTV, up is up into the right.

William Harris 39:27

I would expect that that would that's actually very intuitive to me. By getting back to this idea of, like, good branding that is consistent with what the brand has always stood for, leads towards the rewards of a longer term customer.

Jesse Allouf 39:39

Yeah, yeah. I mean, because when you're consistent, and someone asks someone about our brand, then at some point there's some implanting of that message. And so someone says, Oh, what about tire region? Oh, well, they stand for this. And. And the message has been consistent for a really long time. So, you know, we don't, you know, we work hard to implant that. So the hope, the assumption is that, is that because it's consistent, that you know that it sticks and like so I call it brand, brand formats, which is basically when you like that word. So, yeah, brand, brand formats, to me, especially when you're in e-commerce, most of your media should solve for brand formats almost all the time, almost all the time, very rarely. Should it be pure, pure brand. Yep, I

William Harris 40:41

talk about relationships as being one of my favorite ways of looking at just all things like human relationships. And if you could imagine, if the first thing that you do after somebody buys something from you is you simply say, hey, buy again, and you show them an ad that just says, Buy again, and it's just, you know, an image of product that's not really creating much of a relationship. And think about doing that from, you know, with your wife, or something like that, where it's like, hey, they do one thing that you enjoy, you're like, just continue doing this whatever, with zero building up of this relationship, this story, this narrative, then that relationship dies pretty fast,

Jesse Allouf 41:17

you know, yeah, yeah. Well, that's funny, because the one thing that we do, the one thing that we do is we, we do, if someone places an order, we don't hide our ads from them, because we, we like The comments, and people comment a lot, and it's, it's a really great form of social proof. And it's, I don't know if a lot of people like talk about this, you know, in terms of terms of advertising, but it's hard to measure. But if someone sees your ad and they're less familiar with you, but your ad has 3000 comments, 4000 comments, 70% of them are positive, like there's so much work there that's already been done for you that you didn't on top of the ad spend and everything else that you did To optimize that ad, and now you've got three, 4000 people that are also talking pretty positive about you. It's a pretty it's pretty good, like, weapon. It reminds

William Harris 42:31

me of the social experiment of somebody who maybe isn't a star walking around downtown with like, an entourage and cameras and stuff, right? And it's like, to some degree, then people are just like, Who is this? Like, what is going on? Why do you why? Like, do I know you, they're getting pictures with them and stuff like this, and I can't remember who did this first. A lot of people have done this, like, similar things. But to your point, in these comments, you as the end user might not know who any of these people are that are commenting, but you're saying there's something here for me to take notice of. There's something in our brain that wants to take notice of what other people are already taking notice of. Yeah, yeah. I want to shine a light on Tire Agent a little bit as well, because you guys are different from, like all the rest of the e-commerce companies. Well, not all the rest, but like a lot of other e-commerce companies with that fin tech component as well, tell me a little bit about like, what Tire Agent is, and how you guys have, you know, set yourselves apart. Yeah,

Jesse Allouf 43:25

we we just ensure that, like I mentioned earlier in the pod, we don't go after gearheads. We really go after the average consumer who not to say that they're uneducated, but like people who just know that they need a new set of tires, normal average Joe or Jane. And we just and so what we've done is we've established and built an environment to make it super easy for people to come to our site, conduct a search, super streamlined, and we just make sure that regardless of you know whether you're in the top 1% or whether you're you know bottom 50, like we have a ton of different payment options to enable that consumer to get the tires that they need, and then it's super affordable for them. And that's really, you know, at a high level, you know, that's, that's really the secret sauce, and it's been a really good formula for us.

William Harris 44:40

I love it. How did you end up there? What was your journey like to get there? Yeah, I mean,

Jesse Allouf 44:44

I, I started my career in fashion. And, you know, fashion, a lot of fashion, fashion found fashion, found me, but I, but I enjoy. Waited, I mean, I like, I like dressing, I like dressing nice, you know, nothing wrong with a with a nice, not a nice, you know, nice suit or some nice cashmere. But, um, but ultimately, I was looking to move into more of a, more of a need product, you know, from from a want, and you know, this was around COVID, and an opportunity had presented itself. And I do live in New York, and there's a lot of fashion and technology and finance, and you know, a host of verticals tires is not one of them, sure, you know, and so and so, when a tire company that's e-commerce is presented as an opportunity, I think that it's special. And and I said, this is unique, I don't think this is ever gonna really come around again, I need to meet the founder, and so I met Jared, who's our CEO, founder, and he's very charismatic. We had a great conversation. I loved the pitch, I loved the story, and it met that need, yearning for me, and that was that, and I've been here for a little over four years. I

William Harris 46:25

love it. So we've talked about some of the leading indicators and how you're going about that. Aside from that, what do you think, just in general, for e-commerce, businesses, what are some of the core fundamentals, or the core tactics, things that they need to do to grow their e-commerce

Jesse Allouf 46:43

business. Oh, man, well, that is, that's a broad question. I am going to try. It's very broad. I'm gonna, I'm gonna try and tackle this. So, you know, we talked about leading and and and lagging indicators and and obviously you know how you spend, how you invest your marketing spend is, is pretty huge. But I do think that alignment on on on how you spend, or how you invest your marketing is super important with your CEO and your and your CFO, and how fast you you want to grow, and what you're willing to burn or not burn, I think is super important to get that out of the way super early. But besides that, I think investment in the journey on on on the website, is super important, because kind of like you said earlier about building the foundation, if you're spending all that money and you're driving them to a site, but you're not, you're not focused on optimizing that journey and ensuring that if you're sending them to a product page, if you're sending them to the home page, if you're sending them to special landing pages, if you're not trying to ensure that you're maximizing that that opportunity, and it's really optimizing the spend, right, like because it's all integrated. If you're not doing that, then I think that you're not that you're burning not that you're burning cash, but I think that you're really wasting an opportunity. And I think that really factors into factors into growth. I think it's super duper important. Yeah,

William Harris 48:33

I love the idea of alignment. That's one of the things we talked about. And I mentioned that even in the intro to of how we optimize around EBITDA, I think that a marketing team that isn't aware of how this is impacting bottom line, it doesn't work. And one of the examples that I like to give of of why this doesn't make sense. If you have the wrong metrics that you're looking at, imagine you have two products. Product one is $200 and you have $50 of margin on that one, $50 of profit on that one. Product two is $100 but you have $75 of profit on that one. Let's say that you're optimizing towards a $50 Keck, right? So $200 divided by $50 you've got a four to one row as four to one return, no profit left over whatsoever. The $100 $100 divided by $50 you've got a two to one row as but you've got $25 in actual profit remaining from that. What we've seen so many brands do, agencies, marketing teams, this could be internal marketing teams as well, is they'll pat themselves on the back, saying, We took you from a 2x to a 4x aren't we doing a really good job? And the CFO says not when I look at my EBIT done. And so to a point, if you can align towards what actually matters, you might say, I'm actually going to turn off the ads that are optimizing for this product. That's a four to one, and I'm going to optimize for the two to one. I'm going to lower your row as but I'm going to increase your bottom line. Are you happy with? That that's ultimately the goal. But a lot of people aren't looking that deep into the analytics to be able to make that happen.

Jesse Allouf 50:06

Yeah, no, 100% and you know, for us, we constantly have those conversations. You know, since I've been here, and you know, my CEO made it very clear from day one that he was like profitability above all else. And that was hard at first, because, you know, I was brought in to, like, rocket ship, right? And we have, by the way, but, you know, it's like the venture capital mindset, shares, like, well, you know, rocket ship and burn, right? And, and it was rocket ship and profit. And so it was a big mind shift for me, and and then we, I came on board, and then my CFO came on board. And the funny thing is that my CFO were on the same page about like, you know, being like, no, let's, let's, let's kind of strive for burn and let's go for growth. And ultimately, I think that these conversations are important because you find compromise, you have tough conversations and and I think that's ultimately what I would want to take out of this conversation is have the tough conversations with your CEO, with your CFO, right? If you, as the marketer, see an opportunity, and you're like, to your point, I see this row as or this CPA, and you think that it's going to take the business to the next level, but in the short term, it actually might incur some pain from an EBITDA perspective. Have have have the hard conversation that's going to make you uncomfortable and someone else uncomfortable, because the end result actually might be, you might get closer to what you want that might be good for the business. And I had so many of those conversations that we learned so much, and we're so much stronger for that. And I have gained so much confidence from my CEO and my CFO from that, and I have so much more leeway in terms of what I'm what I've been capable and allowed to do, and how much to spend, and all that stuff, because of a lot of those hard conversations,

William Harris 52:24

I want to dig into that because I think that that's actually a barrier for a lot of people's growth. And so I'm going to give a quick story that I'm going to ask you how you've taken through that a little bit. We run into this oftentimes with some of our clients, where they will present this exact scenario that you just said. It's like, hey, we can actually lower your ROAs in ROAs, increase your profitability. Like, this is really good. And the whoever's the head of marketing that we're dealing with is like, I totally agree with you. This is exactly what I've wanted. And it's like, two months go by and we're still not allowed to do this, this yet, right? And so you're just like, Well, okay, we need to get like, have you had this conversation with your CEO? No, not yet. Okay, well, let's get us on, like, so that maybe it'll be me or my business partner, Jeff. We'll get on to the CEO. We'll have those hard conversations. Why do you think that you What have you done that has allowed you to have those conversations with the CEO? Like, how do you make those conversations, those hard conversations happen for people who are maybe struggling to bring that

Jesse Allouf 53:20

up so very early on, I made it clear to to Jared that I was, I was always going to be the pain in the butt good guy. So, so what one was kind of like setting a tone that, like, hey, you know, you brought me on to help you achieve something, and in order to achieve that thing, I'm gonna be annoying. Like, you know, you're not gonna like me sometimes, but at the same time, we like each other, right? So, so one one is, I think one, you have to establish that you have a baseline good relationship. And I think if you have a good relationship with your CEO, you get, you have the good relationship. But then you also establish, personally, but then business wise, that you you have a code, or an ethos, a philosophy point of view, that that that, that you do stand by, that you that you have the numbers to back up your point of View, and you present it, and you make a case, yeah? And the thing is, it takes time. You know what I just laid out to you in the previous segment, before this segment didn't happen in two months? Yeah. I. I had pockets where he said, Okay, take, take the CPA to a certain number. But then he got skittish, right? And we pulled back. What I'm talking about, honestly, is a, it's a long it's a long game. And that's the thing is that you also have to have patience. You have to. You have to, you have to constantly find pockets to push. Because you can't give up. You can't give up. You have to always push the agenda, and you have to find allies like your CFO or someone else, someone on the board, who also support your point of view. Who's gonna, who's gonna agree with you that you need to push the boundaries, and at some point it will sink in. And obviously your business has to, has to be doing well. I mean, you know if you're, you know if you know if you're, if you're, if you're, you know if your product market fits a little sketchy, or, you know, if you, if you hit a rough patch, obviously, this doesn't really this. This isn't going to work for you. But if you're, if you're moving in a good direction, I think this approach, it just you just, you need patience, but you need to be consistently annoying, but you need to do it in a very professional you need to be very professional about it. But eventually it will. It will work if your CEO, or whoever else is, who's who's making that decision, or who or who has to be a part of the that that the the group who, who's approving those decisions? If they're open minded, right, and they're and they're rational and they're data driven, eventually, like your point of view will work and you you will make some impact, but it will take time. It doesn't happen overnight. You just need to be consistent. And it and it probably took me, and it probably took me honestly, I started in 2021 it probably didn't happen until 2020 late 2023 early 24 not gonna say, like, like, 2023 when he really started to be like, Okay, let's start to open this up and take some and take some risk from his perspective, right? But, you know, but that it just, it took time, but I was consistent. And that's that, that's what matters.

William Harris 57:27

I love that. This is a theme that's come up with both Tire Agent and with you consistency, right? It's like, it's almost showing that, like there's values that are consistent for between the person that's running things in the company. I think this is an important thing. You can't change somebody. You can't change somebody's

Jesse Allouf 57:43

values. No, you can, you can. You can try, sure, and I think, I think that you can. I think you can't. It's hard to change the underlying value. Yes, yes, yes, the underlying values, yes, the underlying values of people are very, very hard to change. But I think that you can open people up to to at least consider alternatives and to be willing to test that alternative, and give you that leeway, but you have to build the trust, which is kind of what you were also alluding to. And I think that's what it's about, is building that trust with your leader and and building the trust to allow them to kind of give you that leeway. It doesn't mean that the value, because I would tell you right now, I still get those slacks and I still get those calls of this metric looks crazy. This metric looks crazy to your point, those under those underlying values do not change, but you build that trust over time, and as long as you have you, as long as you show that you that you are commanding and demanding control of the underlying levers of spend, of your people, of the platforms and everything else, then at least you can maintain, you Know, a level of consistency and their relationship. So it's totally, yeah, yeah. Very interesting.

William Harris 59:25

Buddy I used to work with, named Rob Wormley, was the King of Random trust falls. And so we'd walk through the office and trust fall. And you just had to catch me, like, no matter what's going I don't think that's the way the bell the trust that you're talking about, but yeah, building up trust is a good first start. Jesse, I feel like we've learned a lot about leading metrics, lagging metrics, and all the different ways that we're looking at how to improve this. I think tough conversations is a good one. I want to move into maybe a less tough conversation and actually talk about who is Jesse Allouf, because I think it's really fun to get to know the human behind the person that we're talking to. Tell me a little. Your childhood and how that's helped shape you to be the person that you are today?

Jesse Allouf 1:00:03

Yeah, I was born in Brooklyn, lived hotel seven, raised then we moved to New Jersey, went to school at Stony Brook, was recruited to play football. Really nice, yeah, what position I was? I was a defensive end, nice, yeah, yeah. I used to be a little little little beefier, yeah,

William Harris 1:00:33

intentionally not now, yeah, exactly like you just not eating 300 grams of protein today. Now, yeah? And,

Jesse Allouf 1:00:39

well, the thing is, you know, it's like, you know, when you know, when you, when you have that helmet on all the time, like, you can't help but have like, you know, like, just like, like, a neck that goes on for days, yeah? But, yeah, that, you know, fun, fun times, and, and, yeah, just, I've always, I've always, basically just circled around New York. My mother worked in the worked in Manhattan. I used to go with her. And so I just had this, this kind of like romantic relationship with with also, like living in Manhattan. And so I just always, like, wanted to, like work and live here and and eventually, uh, eventually, I was able to to to accomplish that. So

William Harris 1:01:24

one of the things that came out was that you're very consistent, and you're willing to have hard conversations, right? Like, that's something that maybe other people can struggle with. What do you think helped you develop those abilities? Is like something that your mom instilled in you, or football coach, or, um,

Jesse Allouf 1:01:40

you know, no, I mean, to be honest, my my mom's Actually, she's like a she's like a saint, she's like an angel, like hard conversations I definitely did not get from her, to be honest with you, I the hard conversation thing is really out of necessity. I in my personal life, like, I don't want to have hard conversations, but, but the way, the way that I, the way that I approach it, is kind of like what I was saying earlier about, like, having an ethos, having having a point of view and a philosophy. I will, you know, I will try and not have a hard conversation if I don't have to, but at some point, right, like, if it's in your personal life, or whether it's at work, like you just have to have it, and you gotta rip the band aid off, right? And just, and just have it because you're trying to achieve something, right? So whether it is in your personal life, or whether it's, uh, whether it's in business, so yeah,

William Harris 1:02:35

well, let's talk personal life a little bit. What are some of the other things that you're passionate about? Maybe you're not playing football anymore, but maybe you are passionate about other things.

Jesse Allouf 1:02:43

Yeah, I go to the gym a lot. That's a really important routine for me from a headspace standpoint, you know, especially like living in New York, you know, it's very, you know, not chaotic is maybe the wrong word, but there's just a lot going on, and obviously in, you know, work and personal life, and so

William Harris 1:03:08

you, are you a morning or afternoon workout person you gotta like first thing in the morning? Are you like, I'm gonna go work out some stress?

Jesse Allouf 1:03:14

Yeah, this is a great question, because I think people fall on like two spectrums, right? So I'm, I'm a morning person, because I want to control my day and and, and I think if you go at night, you can't, you can't control your day, because you just don't know what's going to happen as your day progresses. And so if I know that, I'm, I can control when I wake up, and then, you know, going to the gym, and then, basically, the day is going to happen. So, yeah, morning all the way. I'm

William Harris 1:03:49

with you. I'm Team morning all the way for that exact reason. I don't think that I'm naturally morning person for that, but it's the only way they can find consistency. No,

Jesse Allouf 1:03:57

I am not a morning person. I have to force myself to be morning person. And what's awesome is the gym that I go to has a basketball court, and so I love basketball. I'm a huge Knicks fan, and so when I have time, I can go get some reps in Shoot, shoot the ball around. It's sad that now I'm entering into my mid 40s, and my shot is the best it's ever been in my mid 40s, like, like, when I was on the freshman basketball team and my and I had no shot, you know. Like, why can I have that shot dead, you know? But 100% you know, so, so is life, you

William Harris 1:04:35

know, I played in an adult league this year for the first time in like, 20 years, right? Where I was, like, playing more than just playing around. And basketball was my sport. That's what I loved playing as well. And totally agree with you, it was wild to see there. Was like, man, I was more consistent now than I think I was back in high school, when I played two hours a day, right? And you're just like, yeah,

Jesse Allouf 1:04:55

yeah. It's weird. It's like, I guess it's a. You are just more your body is more in tune with, just, just with space. And I guess maybe as you get older, you're just more in tune with, I don't know, like, on a form or something. Yeah, it's interesting. Interesting. Yeah. What

William Harris 1:05:17

do you have any quotes that you live by? Is there any quote that you know people who are close to you are like, yep, you say that all the time,

Jesse Allouf 1:05:24

yeah. So I don't have many, but I do have one. So thank you. That's all you need. Yeah. So 1090 rule, invest 90% of your resources into people and 10% in technology. Now, obviously, in practice, you wouldn't really do that, because we live in a very, you know, technology world. And, you know, just think about AI and how much money people are dumping, the billions of dollars people are dumping it to that. But to me, it's more of a philosophy. The point is, is that you can, you can start a company and with the best of intentions, but if you don't have the best people, or if you don't invest in your people, then your company can't grow and be successful. So my my 1090 rule is really just about get people invest in them and and I think if you do that, then you can have an a successful business, a successful team, etc. I'm going

William Harris 1:06:27

to get philosophical here for a moment. When my brother was in Shanghai, or as he pronounced it, Shanghai, right? They had Street Sweepers. And, like we have street sweepers in Minnesota here, and they're machines that come by and sweep the streets. And there they had people with giant brooms that are like, 10 feet long sweeping the streets every single day. I was like, to a point. I was like, have we? Have we opt, like, over automated and optimize things to the point where it's like, it didn't need to be this $100,000 vehicle. It could be a human being doing something, feeling like they're contributing in some meaningful way to something good and beneficial, is that maybe not better. There's a lot less potential pollution. I don't know. I haven't looked at the pollution of like a human being versus a vehicle, but like, you know, we Belch and burp and stuff like that and whatever, right? So, like, but like, I don't know, there seems like maybe, do we sometimes over engineer things that didn't need to be engineered. So I like that. 1090 I like that.

Jesse Allouf 1:07:22

Yeah, yeah. Great question.

William Harris 1:07:25

Well, Jesse, this has been a lot of fun talking to you. I feel like we've learned a lot from you. I've learned a lot about you as well. If people want to work with you, or they want to follow you, what's the best way for them to stay in touch, learn about you, etc.

Jesse Allouf 1:07:38

Yeah, you can find me on LinkedIn, Jesse Allouf. There's no other Jesse Allouf's out there, thankfully. And also Jesse@tireagent.com. Super easy,

William Harris 1:07:50

awesome. Well, Jesse again, thank you for coming on the show, sharing your time, sharing your wisdom with us, and

Jesse Allouf 1:07:56

thank you so much for having me. Will this was awesome, and I hope to do this again at some point in the future.

William Harris 1:08:01

Thank you everyone for listening. Have a great rescue day.

Outro 1:08:05

Thanks for listening to the Up Arrow Podcast with William Harris. We'll see you again next time, and be sure to click Subscribe to get future episodes.

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